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Post by watchman on Feb 20, 2008 9:36:11 GMT -5
Another prescient saying is "If you lie about the little things you will lie about the big things". Clinton and Bush both fall under this category. Although in the grand scheme of things no one died from the blow job. Samson might disagree he had his eyes poked out then died. also I am not aware of where it has been proven that Bush lied. Can you point it out to me? If you want to say WMD's get George Sada's book before you do. mike
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Post by benmiralia on Feb 20, 2008 9:58:45 GMT -5
Okay Mike, but only because you asked. Uranium from Niger, the connection between Saddam and Bin Laden (who Saddam hated), editing environmental studies to suit his pre ordained conclusions, and worst of all he lied about having a working knowledge of the english language. For shame. By the way, I will get that book. It will be interesting to see if history supports his claims.
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Post by Aussie Rob on Feb 20, 2008 10:06:15 GMT -5
Yeah I'm married, and no....if my marriage some day fails, i fully expect to still be able to show up to work and do my job. Lets stay on point.
I'm not going to even get into citing religious tales for political purposes.
You don't have to like the guy personally. But Clinton has a long list of accomplishments. - Longest Economic Expansion in U.S. History. - Taking a record defecit and turning it into a surplus - PEriod of record low in unemployment - Highest homeowner rate in history - MAssivly increased adoptions - Abortions dropped - Expanded Pell grants for education - Crime bill slashed crime rate - Put tens of thousands more cops on the streets - Made it harder for cons to get a hold of guns - Lowest % of Americans on welfare in 35 years - Moved record no. of people from welfare into the workforce - Teen pregnancies dropped significantly
The list goes on, but im sure you're already shaking your head enough as it is. Fact of the matter is, Slick Willie had some personal issues, and a sham of a marriage...but when you stack it all up. His two terms were productive, and America did quite well under him.
No i haven't read your book. Between the kids, school, and training....i frankly don't have the time to read like i used to.
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Post by watchman on Feb 20, 2008 10:07:16 GMT -5
Okay Mike, but only because you asked. Uranium from Niger, the connection between Saddam and Bin Laden (who Saddam hated), editing environmental studies to suit his pre ordained conclusions, and worst of all he lied about having a working knowledge of the english language. For shame. By the way, I will get that book. It will be interesting to see if history supports his claims. I have heard these things but I was not aware they have been proven. I am a debate coach for some High School kids and a debate judge. One thing I have learned there are alot of statements made but without evidence you cannot consider them. We are all at the mercy of a media that is biased on both sides and unless we have some personal connection or information we will not know for sure. Clinton admitted his though so that we know for sure. An interesting thought about George Sada. I met him and discussed these things. He said that he was interviewed by a British Newspaper and the reported told him it was great stuff and she wished she could use it. He asked why they could not and she said that the paper had already taken a position on the war and could not go back from that position. mike
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Post by Aussie Rob on Feb 20, 2008 10:22:38 GMT -5
If you want citations for Ben's points, you have the internet at your disposal.
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Post by Brian Luther on Feb 20, 2008 10:31:46 GMT -5
Rob,
Not taking anything away from Bill and Hillary's efforts while in the White-house, but
Two points of interest.....
Abortions dropped and Teen pregnancies dropped too....
Wouldn't these two points be more relevant because of abundance of condoms in our society today..... Its been since the early eighty's that "protection"/condoms have been pushed in sex education in schools.. So its easy to assume that those numbers have gone down because of this.....
With the amount of crap on t.v. and the story-lines relating too or about sex, kids/teens are overwhelmed with these ideas and thoughts.....
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Post by watchman on Feb 20, 2008 10:33:43 GMT -5
If you want citations for Ben's points, you have the internet at your disposal. quotes are not evidence. You would have to know who, when , what sources they used. You can find quotes that support both sides. Just be careful not to beleive everything you read. I would like to see evidence. Until then I will listen but not be swayed either way. it is easy to play the crowd and the crowd is usually wrong. mike
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Post by Aussie Rob on Feb 20, 2008 11:00:01 GMT -5
A citation is not a quote. It's a reference to a text or publication that includes all the bibliographical info.
I don't believe everything i read. Any shmuck can write a book.
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Post by watchman on Feb 20, 2008 11:31:47 GMT -5
A citation is not a quote. It's a reference to a text or publication that includes all the bibliographical info. I don't believe everything i read. Any shmuck can write a book. But any citation still has to be tested with who?, why? and was there an adgenda? I agree with the shmuk comment miike
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Post by watchman on Feb 20, 2008 11:33:39 GMT -5
A citation is not a quote. It's a reference to a text or publication that includes all the bibliographical info. I don't believe everything i read. Any shmuck can write a book. But any citation still has to be tested with who?, why? and was there an adgenda? I agree with the shmuk comment miike
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Post by Aussie Rob on Feb 20, 2008 12:13:28 GMT -5
Well that's for you to figure out i suppose. My point is, if you want to investigate Ben's charges of lying, then the info is at your disposal.
Frankly, i think it's a given that every polly is full of lies, Bush not withstanding.
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Post by keaveny on Feb 20, 2008 12:57:33 GMT -5
Any shmuck can write a book. You sir, are correct! Indeed! In-double-deed! But not just any schmuck can invent the internet. It takes a schmuck of monumental proportions. Only a schmuck like this, could do that...
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Post by Brandon on Feb 20, 2008 13:32:35 GMT -5
The info in the above post will be of great help in my voting decisions. I now am a much more informed voter
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Post by michaelfenoff on Feb 20, 2008 14:21:01 GMT -5
Those are the three books I have vowed never to read. Books I read have to credibility to them.
I still can't believe Gore said he invented the internet.... obnoxious of epic proportions...
Did i tell you I invented the wheel?
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Post by Aussie Rob on Feb 20, 2008 14:54:16 GMT -5
Way to completely swallow the garbage that people throw out. Gore never claimed to have invented the internet. He's not an idiot, he knows he has no claim there. What he meant was that he was partly responsible (in a legislative sense) for helping along the technology we now use for the internet. You really believe he thinks he invented the internet? How gullible are you? He made a bad choice of words, and people ran with it as they tend to do in this country. Heaven forbid you make a verbal faux pas in the US, you get strung up for it. Here, snopes it - www.snopes.com/quotes/internet.aspVowing to never read the memoirs of a two term President, or a book by a nobel peace prize recipient because to you it has no credibility? Want to know the hilarious irony of you closing your mind like that? Gore's book is about ignoring facts and forging ahead on ideology alone. Like you seem to be.
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Post by TimAckley on Feb 20, 2008 17:29:40 GMT -5
Re: Who Will Be The Next U.S. President? « Reply #89 on Today at 9:02am »
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MIKE....
If you are faithful in little things you will be faithful in greater things. a very wise person said this.
If he cannot be faithful to his committment to his wife then he will not be faithful to his committment to our country. He has lack conviction in his heart.
I was in the Air Force during his years and he did many things that directly hurt our country.
It is not about politics it is about character. He cannot be trusted to do anything except what is good for him.
I could not agree with you more on what you said.. I ended my career in the service 16 days before Bill "the Draft Dodger" Clinton took office.. I chose not to serve under someone who did what he did to stay out of the draft for Vietnam.. How would you go into war listening to a person like that..
Not that it mattered anyways, its cleary known now, that Bill is a LOVER not a FIGHTER...
Looking more like Clinton's will not be going back to the Office... I hope I did not speak to soon...
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Post by keaveny on Feb 20, 2008 19:10:32 GMT -5
Way to completely swallow the garbage that people throw out. Gore never claimed to have invented the internet. He's not an idiot, he knows he has no claim there. What he meant was that he was partly responsible (in a legislative sense) for helping along the technology we now use for the internet. You really believe he thinks he invented the internet? How gullible are you? He made a bad choice of words, and people ran with it as they tend to do in this country.... And here I thought you got my sense of humor. I couldn't resist with the, "any schmuck can write a book." I had to do it. I thought you got me, man. Apparently our relationship isn't what I thought it was. Yes, I know. It was his autobiography.
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Post by Aussie Rob on Feb 20, 2008 20:33:44 GMT -5
Nah dude, your post was funny. It's on par with Clinton always smiling because he has Monica under the desk, and Bush looking oddly monkey like. That post was directed at Michael.
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Post by Jack Carney on Feb 20, 2008 21:31:41 GMT -5
OK I still can't figure out how to do the quote thing with several diffferent quotes to respond so I will do it this way.
Dennis K. - I have no problem with someone switching opinions or having a change of heart but his timing was too close to his run and it was obvious why he did it. Then he voted against a ban on partial birth abortion siding with the people he needed most in his comical run. He has cheated the taxpayers and his constituents out of his salary and I hope they have the brains now to send him packing.
Clinton Pardons - Drug dealers, terrorists, and GASP!! a tax evader like Marc Rich. How could those of you who love taxes so much ever let that happen and forgive Slick Willie?
Bush lied - yea keep drinking the Kool Aid. Everyone had the same intelligence and knew Sadaam had WMDs but Bill didn't have the guts to do anything about it except bomb an aspirin factory when the heat was on about Monica. Mistakes made during the war - yea a lot of them but the Bush lied people died crowd would be the same ones screaming for his hide if anything ever happened from something he didn't do so it is a no win situation.
How about the people who jumped out of windows and were flown into buildings on 9/11 from a plot hatched by Osama Bin Ladin who was ignored by Bill Clinton while he was receiving those "harmless" BJs. Hard to blame GW for that now isnt it?
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Post by Charlie on Feb 20, 2008 21:52:05 GMT -5
would be the same ones screaming for his hide if anything ever happened from something he didn't do so it is a no win situation. Seems to be the american political tone in a nutshell. To quote, hit the quote icon in the upper right hand of the post box. Then edit the post to use the text you need. If you still have trouble, call me. I will walk you through it.
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Post by Brandon on Feb 20, 2008 22:00:12 GMT -5
would be the same ones screaming for his hide if anything ever happened from something he didn't do so it is a no win situation. Seems to be the american political tone in a nutshell. No doubt! I have a feeling that whomever shows up for work in the oval office has a pretty tough job. Ah, after all this discussion I'm beginning to wonder when the perfect candidate will come along. My middle school social studies teacher might have been right after all.....I think he said something about checks and balances being important.
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Post by Jack Carney on Feb 20, 2008 22:08:34 GMT -5
I remember that being one of my thoughts on 9/11. Who in the world would want the job of president. It is the most difficult thing I can think of and even if you do a good job no one will admit it until you are dead.
On the quotes i can figure out how to do a quote and edit it but how do you do it numerous times in the same post?
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Post by michaelfenoff on Feb 20, 2008 22:12:27 GMT -5
I think Jack, Tim and I are allies on here. haha.
Seriously, I wouldn't read a book by them if they were the greatest president ever. Although I am younger than most of you (I know Rob is 25 so thats close) I have looked into a lot of things about the previous president and I honestly believe that Slick Willy created a faux economy and sense of security that somewhere in his mind he knew would crumble once he was gone.
Once again I'm tired of hearing that the fall in the economy is Bush's fault. It happened after 9/11. Everyone got scared to fly, than to spend money, and than buying houses became what it is. What happens, it's Bushes fault. Willy was the one who set up 9/11 to happen with his ignorance that everyone in the world liked us. In this world that is not the case. The majority of people that want to hurt us are people that don't like that we are allies with Israel. He didn't recognize that and now we are in this war. The best way is to do what we are doing. Yes people object to the war. There will always be people who do this (ever since people got it in their heads that they can protest.... useful, sometimes, but ask our troops and most will tell you to back them instead of protesting them) but there are also people who stand behind the cause. We need to keep our heads up because there are people that don't like us and if we duck for a second we will have another 9/11.
The next president really is going to hinder my decision to go into the military. Not that I have an overwhelming urge to kill something, but I feel that if Barack or Hilary I will be very bored as an officer. (training gets boring)
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Post by Charlie on Feb 20, 2008 22:26:00 GMT -5
Michael, If you are in the military, do your job. Ours is to ask why. If you question the leadership while in combat, your in trouble. I doubt the war will be over anytime soon. I hope for your sake it is.
Without protests, we would all be speaking english.....or have bad teeth:)
Jack, not sure on the multiple quotes.
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Post by michaelfenoff on Feb 20, 2008 23:29:59 GMT -5
Charlie. I am not in the military quite yet. I am still a junior in college and in the Marine Corps Officer Program. I got to Officer Candidate School in May for my second time. If I pass (which I should, the hardest part is the physical fitness, and after doing Ironman, nothing is more difficult) I will get commissioned after I graduate in 2009. Only after I get commissioned do I stop asking why and just do the job. I have no problem with that, but I'm going to take advantage of my ability to be a civilian while I still can.
I understand protesting is okay in some instances. Hell, protesting democratic candidates is at the top of my list right now. I'm not saying that it hasn't solved things, but people have become "protest-happy" and do it to a lot of obnoxious things, like Berkley protesting having the Marine Corps recruiting station in their town and saying that the Marines aren't welcome there. Than is just wrong.
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Post by Charlie on Feb 21, 2008 0:17:25 GMT -5
I didn't mean "do your job right now". I meant once active, focus on the task at hand, Get home safe, and become a loudmouthed obnoxious American again. We need as many as we can get. When we have a common cause we do work well together.
Berkley?. Recruiters are thought of in the same regard as predatory lenders in anti war circles. I have been distancing myself from some of the peace movement because i object to some of these actions toward gov offices and the private homes of elected officials. Despite any pre conceived belief of my politics, I am a fan of Sen. Voinavich.
300,000,000 people. We are going to have people that think cookie monster should stop eating cookies. Be glad they can protest. It is a huge part of what you may have to fight for. If you ever see an america that is not outspoken, then it is really time to question things.
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Post by Brian on Feb 21, 2008 8:16:33 GMT -5
I didn't mean "do your job right now". I meant once active, focus on the task at hand, Get home safe, and become a loudmouthed obnoxious American again. We need as many as we can get. When we have a common cause we do work well together. Berkley?. Recruiters are thought of in the same regard as predatory lenders in anti war circles. I have been distancing myself from some of the peace movement because i object to some of these actions toward gov offices and the private homes of elected officials. Despite any pre conceived belief of my politics, I am a fan of Sen. Voinavich. 300,000,000 people. We are going to have people that think cookie monster should stop eating cookies. Be glad they can protest. It is a huge part of what you may have to fight for. If you ever see an america that is not outspoken, then it is really time to question things. Well
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Post by Brian on Feb 21, 2008 8:26:35 GMT -5
Charlie,
Yes, the "Recruiters" , not all but some, have deceived the young men and women when they have signed up to enlist.....
I guess you can call them, little white lies or half truths, to entice them to join.......
To serve our country is still a great thing, just understand what you are getting yourself into...... Once you swear in, you are sacrificing your life for your country.... No matter who is President
Brian
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Post by MattCollister on Feb 21, 2008 8:28:06 GMT -5
Can I make a suggestion?
I am no longer an administrator of this board, nor a Tri Club board member. So take this as a friendly suggestion from a fellow member.
Take this discussion and the Taxes discussion off line.
These are great discussions, and for a few days involved a lot of people and a lot of viewpoints. Including my own.
But at this point, it's just a handful of posters. You know who you are. You guys need to go out for a beer and talk it over. I think you'd have fun.
I don't think anyone is offended - beyond how you'd normally be offended when one states their opinion on politics (I mean, you're automatically going to disagree with half the people, right?).
But a very real issue is that many people, including me, peruse this board with the "View most recent 50 posts" function. If you look at that now, most of the posts are within these two threads. And I think many club members would agree with me when I say we'd like to move on.
I like the variety of opinions and even the non-tri topics once in a while. But I think its time to get back to being a triathlon forum.
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Post by benmiralia on Feb 21, 2008 8:36:16 GMT -5
Holy Lord, thank you Matt.
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