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Post by MarkD on Feb 16, 2008 12:38:21 GMT -5
As a moderate, I would vote for a strong 3rd party candidate - 3 or more solid political parties would create a much more balanced choice for voters. The extreme right and left wingers would have freaky candidates to vote for - they would rarely win - and moderates would rule! That being said, since there is no 3rd party to consider, I feel McCain is the most balanced candidate of the 3. Unfortunately for him, he had the charisma of an ass pimple.
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Post by MattCollister on Feb 16, 2008 13:02:45 GMT -5
Mark,
History shows that charasmatic ass pimples can go a long way.
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Post by Jack Carney on Feb 16, 2008 13:32:52 GMT -5
OK before I respond again I need to know how you put the quotes of others in the nifty little boxes.
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Post by Aussie Rob on Feb 16, 2008 13:42:33 GMT -5
I don't think there is a real left wing in the USA. I think the conservatives are right wing, and the dems are moderate. It's all relative though. I think Clinton was a moderate socially, and fiscally conservative, but he is branded as leftist because he's a dem.
Real left wing liberal policies in this country are not tolerated even by liberals. You want to see real liberalism, take a look at the euros. Stuff that goes on over there would make even the most granola liberal here blush.
You have to be kidding me. People are still regurgitating this rhetoric? Bush lost the opportunity to "fight them over there" when he made Afghanistan and Osama a secondary priority. Where are we now over there? Oh the Taliban are making a comeback and Osama is still on the loose. Bush took his eye off the ball, and now we don't know where the ball is or what it's doing because of his obsession with going into Iraq, which turned out to be a massive mistake and has done nothing but cost us money and lives. There was no WMD, no al qaeda, no imminent threat, nothing. He made a bad call and screwed up. I was initially for the war because i bought into the propaganda, but i was wrong and so was Bush. People need to start admitting that. Nothing fruitful has come out of Iraq. Nothing. Not even killing Saddam is a good enough reason because he wasn't the threat he was made out to be. Hell, Saddam was good for one thing atleast. He ruled with such an iron fist that al qaeda was non-existent in his country under his rule. Clinton did deal with Iraq and Saddam. In 1998 when Saddam kicked out the inspectors, Clinton bombed the crap out of him until he let them back in to do their job. Operation Desert Fox....or do the Clinton haters forget that episode? I like his way better compared to the cluster f**k Bush has gotten us into.
As far as discussing politics with friends etc. I never allow politics to affect my relationships with people. Someones politics is not the whole sum of a person, so even though i can vehemently disagree with someone on a thread like this, i'll still txt them on the weekend to go for a run/ride etc and enjoy their company. This is nothing but a frank exchange of ideas.....and i think that's healthier than just talking to people you already agree with and reinforcing what you already think. I like being challenged with different perspectives and ideas.
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Post by MarkD on Feb 16, 2008 15:38:46 GMT -5
Now that we've covered politics, anyone care to start the "religion thread"?
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Post by Aussie Rob on Feb 16, 2008 16:03:10 GMT -5
My god would totally kick your gods arse kind of deal? hehe
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Post by TimAckley on Feb 16, 2008 16:36:12 GMT -5
Yes, this is good conversation and would never hold anything anyone said personal.. I actually get a good laugh from time to time from the forum.. I am not an expert on politics, but like to talk politics.. and most of this is just our own opinions.. and your right its good to hear opinions of different people... and I needed a break from the trainer...
But, LOL... if Clinton would have done alittle more during his terms to catch Osama, things could be different???.. If anyone should have been impeached it should of been his Fraternity while in the White House.. Oh!!! Thats right "He did not have sexual relations with that women".... My bad.... Just a few to refer to would be the World Trade center attack in 93, the USS Cole in 2000, the two US Embassy bombings in East Africa in 98, which this one put Bin Laden on the FBI's top ten list... All these linked to Laden... Laden bragged about the Cole..
and I think the US decided to goto war in Iraq..
MAN.... I wish they would let Bush run for a third term....
We should have taken care of business during Desert Sheild/ Desert Storm..
Saddam was just an evil man.. Would their country been better off with him there.. I do not know, I guess we would have to ask the people that lived under his reign of a steel fist... Which I think the media does not show enough of.. They show more of the negative then the positive of what is actually going on there..
Its amazing how fast the threads get off the topic..
Religion LOL...
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Post by Charlie on Feb 16, 2008 16:47:48 GMT -5
I know I can't help but to reply to these threads, but I always feel a little weird about doing it.
Multisports has always been an escape from the madness the rest of our world offers. This is where I come to celebrate human achievement. Not to reflect on Societies failings and the misdirection of our governmental leadership.
That said, Ron Paul ran an ad during the Kona special. So he now has my vote! Well, 'cept for that health care plan. Seems a little vague. Now that I think about it, the libertarian goal of No Government = Good Government remains a bit vague. Scratch Ron Paul.
As far as God is concerned. Rob, Your God's arse is my God's Arse. You just choose to depict Him/Her/ It as a crocodile wrestling, Fosters drinking God.
Now if we can just stay away from the Beatles / Stones argument......Ringo sucks!
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Post by Aussie Rob on Feb 16, 2008 18:00:48 GMT -5
Bush Snr. didn't go all the way to Baghdad because he knew there was no way out of it. He's even gone on record saying as such. The old man was smarter than the son. Sure Clinton probably could have done more, but he did authorise several hits on Osama that failed. I suppose anything short of a full scale mobilization of the armed forces is not doing enough? Atleast he wasn't the one that trained and armed Osama in the first place....i suppose we can thank Reagan and Bush Snr for that. Hell, we can thank Regan and Bush Snr for arming and funing Saddam in the 80s too! I would say the republicans have made the bigger security blunders if you ask me. Charlie, if God is all knowing then surely he must know Fosters is brewed in Canada and noone back home drinks it....although im pretty sure he could totally take down a croc. I'm actually a Deist...there is a God, but i don't think he's all that interested in us mortals.
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Post by TimAckley on Feb 16, 2008 18:48:11 GMT -5
Sure Bill tried, he even went on record and said he would of put 20,000 troops in Afganistan if he was still President.. After Bush had already achieved troops there.. and he ordered a hit but the reason he could not do it was because he could not establish a base in Uzbekistan.. Blah, Blah, Blah.... The smiley at the end with the tongue was a perfect touch... LMAO.. So maybe we can call this a tie... 8 years for Clinton; No Osama... Almost 8 years Bush; No Osama.... US Trade Policy anyone?
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Post by michaelfenoff on Feb 16, 2008 20:53:53 GMT -5
Sure, the news is consistently wrong about the war and make it out to be worse than it is. Two close friends of mine are in the Marines and both have done tours, one has done two. They both said the same thing to me. Baghdad is the only place left. All the other big cities are safe for the most part. as far as religion goes... methodist, but I worship the triathlon gods more often.
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Post by Aussie Rob on Feb 16, 2008 21:27:36 GMT -5
Sounds like a good bet. You have a nicer bike than me
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Post by michaelfenoff on Feb 16, 2008 22:39:11 GMT -5
haha... now because I haven't been over there and this isn't a sporting event, I'm not really going to put good money, or a good bike down on it. Am I confident i am right, yes, but it's my bike... and I'm sure another triathlete would never take a bike from another.... or am I wrong.
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Post by Aussie Rob on Feb 16, 2008 22:48:59 GMT -5
Depends if you have the Red on it by next year
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Post by Brent on Feb 17, 2008 10:23:44 GMT -5
That is incorrect. This is America, the land of opportunity , not the land of entitlement. The government has a responsibility to provide citizens with an opportunity to take care of themselves. If the citizens choose not to put forth the effort required to take care of themselves, it is not the government's responsibility to take from those who work hard and give to those who do not. Our founding fathers decided that America should be a capitalist society. If socialism is what you desire, there are lots of other places to live.
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Post by Charlie on Feb 17, 2008 11:15:46 GMT -5
Our founding fathers also owned slaves.
Wealth and poverty have little to do with hard work.
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Post by Aussie Rob on Feb 17, 2008 11:57:28 GMT -5
That is incorrect. This is America, the land of opportunity , not the land of entitlement. The government has a responsibility to provide citizens with an opportunity to take care of themselves. If the citizens choose not to put forth the effort required to take care of themselves, it is not the government's responsibility to take from those who work hard and give to those who do not. Our founding fathers decided that America should be a capitalist society. If socialism is what you desire, there are lots of other places to live. Balony. One of the primary functions of government is to protect it's citizens, and i consider financial ruin through no fault of thier own to be part of that. Joan had been a full time, tax paying citizen her whole life. Shes a masters educated woman who i can assure you has worked hard and put forth the effort to further herself. Yet when she fell on hard times, she nearly lost everything because of the outrageous healthcare system in this country. I think the government has a responsibility to protect hard working citizens from this fate.
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Post by Charlie on Feb 17, 2008 12:05:15 GMT -5
Well maybe if Joan was named GM, Ford, Chrysler, Good Year, or if she was an Airline or a major sports franchise things would be better for her.
I think if she were an insurance "Provider", She could get some help.
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Post by Brent on Feb 17, 2008 14:19:13 GMT -5
Wealth and poverty have little to do with hard work. That has to be one of the funniest statements I have ever seen.
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Post by Charlie on Feb 17, 2008 14:37:19 GMT -5
Why?
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Post by Jack Carney on Feb 17, 2008 15:11:48 GMT -5
If Brent enters the race I will vote for him.
Hard work and perseverance are what built this country and although everyone falls on hard times sometimes it is those who pull themselves up by their bootstraps and keep fighting that keep our country strong.
The evil corporations mentioned, not the government, have provided jobs and a good living for years and years for millions of Americans. But if politicians or others feel they make too much they are demonized. I thought that was the idea in this country.
And yes hard work has everything to do with success. THere is an old saying that you can get rich in America working just half a day. Just pick what half you want to work the first twelve hours or the second. Not to say there aren't hard workers living in poverty but the entitlements that are being thrown around are the problem. We have generations of people now that have never held a job and look to the government to supply them with everything. I blame that on the bleeding heart liberals who put them in that situation. And Hillary and Barack are promising more. Where does the money come from for this? Look in the mirror.
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Post by MattCollister on Feb 17, 2008 15:15:21 GMT -5
Yeah, doesn't Paris Hilton prove that?
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Post by Charlie on Feb 17, 2008 15:37:14 GMT -5
I am not discounting the value of hard work at all. Nor do I advocate handouts to pan handlers.
I am not suggesting that those corporations are evil. They do however have their hands out. It is to our advantage to provide safety nets for companies that employ so many. I won't dispute that. It is also to our advantage to protect working American families. I don't see why this is in question.
My point is that much of our nation has been built with slave labor and on the sweat of the working class. There is no excuse for leaving hard working Americans behind in terms of health care, yet close to a third of our nation goes without it.
Hard work is very often not rewarded in our country. Marketability, supply, and demand play a larger roll in ones ability to recover proper compensation.
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Post by Aussie Rob on Feb 17, 2008 16:37:22 GMT -5
I'm of the opinion that a market driven capitalist democracy with a dash of socialism is the best mix. Like Canada, Australia, and NZ. But that's my bias based on where i grew up i suppose. Too much of one or the other though and things get screwed up/left out. That's what i think happens in the USA. Free market capitalism does a great job most of the time, but it allows too many people to fall through the cracks.
Besides, it's in everyones best interest to have everyone doing well. Give a poor person $100, and by the time it's gone through the economy it has had a $300-$400 impact. That's why we're all getting rebate cheques this spring. Gotta love the multiplier effect.
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Post by michaelfenoff on Feb 17, 2008 20:52:54 GMT -5
I'm glad that Paris Hilton got brought up in our conversation. It makes me laugh
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Post by watchman on Feb 17, 2008 23:06:40 GMT -5
Some thought on the Iraq war. I have a very close friend who spends many months of the year in Israel. He is close friends with some of the highest ranking military leaders there. The intelligence information Israel has is second to none. 3 months before the war started he told some things they told him. 1. the actual battle would be over quickly but securing the peace would take along time. 2. He told me that our intent from day one is that we were never leaving. The purpose is to establish a stable government which would allow the country to prosper. The Irag citizeship is the highest educated of all the Middle eastern countries. They are 3 rd in oil production. With a stable Government Iraq woudl rise quickly and become a world economic leader. The purpose was that the other Arab nations would follow their lead . If you talk to the people of Iraq they are thankful and glad we came. The attacks have been carried out by people from Iran and Syria . As for the Weapons of Mass destruction. My friend shared that he was told they were all sent to Syria right before we attacked. Last September I went to hear someone speak . His name was George Sada. He was Saddam Husseins most trusted advisor. He wrote a book called "Saddam's Secrets". I would recommend it if you would like to get the truth about all this. He said he personally witnessed 54 747's being remodeled and used to transport all the WMD's to Syria. He said there was a humanitarian crisis and Saddam used this as a way to get the Chemical weapons out. Our Government cannot tell the national news we know where they are without damaging our own security. I personally spoke to him after this event and he told me that after his book came out that the head of Israel's military called him and told him he was correct and asked if he would like him to tell exactly where they are now. The bottom line is they existed and other news media have acknowledge this but the national news will not. Something to keep in mind. This issue is about Israel. The Muslims want them out because the Koran states that any land that is under Muslim control will stay under its control. The fact that Israel took control of that land is a afront to Islam. We are the only friend in the world to Israel. That is why we are hated by Muslims. The problem is ; anyone who blesses Israel has been blessed and anyone who comes against them has been destroyed. So we have a decision. Either to give in to Islam, or stay a friend to Israel. One last thought. My friend told me one more thing. Israel will not wait for our help. If they believe Iran or anyone else is close to having Nuclear weapons they will set them back 50 years. Right now they have targeted every Arab nation's capitol with nuclear weapons. That is the ONLY reason why 800 million Arabs do not attack a handful of Jews in a little speck of land with no real value. exciting times What to look for. Europe is and will rise to dwarf the United Staes and become a world power. China also will be Japan on steriods. The cold war is back. Russia will align with Iran ( which they are) and make a move into the Middle east against Israel. We will be reduced to the level of Mexico. All the tension and strife in the world will center on That small little spec of a nation Israel. Just some thoughts . Also you can get the book "Saddam's Secrets" by George Sada at Amazon.com also click on this link below to listen to him share about Iraq from the inside not from news reporters who have no clue. www.aproundtable.org/tps30info/sada.htmlmike
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Post by Aussie Rob on Feb 17, 2008 23:30:01 GMT -5
Forgive me Mike, but you have a buddy who shared top secret Israeli intelligence with you? Forgive me if i remain skeptical.
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Post by watchman on Feb 17, 2008 23:43:28 GMT -5
That is exactly what I am saying, but none of what I said is Top Secret. For the past 25 years he has done many things in support of the nation of Israel and considered a close friend. I was with him and was introduced to goverment officials in Israel the week after 9/11. None of what I told you is Top Secret. The information is there and has been reported. What would be Top Secret is where Israel's nuclear weapons are located. It is no secret that the WMD's were there and shipped out. It is no secret that Israel will do whatever it takes to defend itself. It is no secret they have nuclear weapons. Everything this freind has told me has been shown to be true . I can introduce you to him if you would like. E-mail me and I will set it up. There are many details that I cannot share here but I am willing to talk to you directly. My e-mail is
Stonewall7@alltel.net
But if you do not believe me get George Sada's book
It will blow your mind the things he shares form the inside.
Mike
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Post by TimAckley on Feb 18, 2008 9:18:40 GMT -5
Does he know where Jimmy Hoffa is??
But I am going to pick up that book.. another good book I read was "Lone Survivor" by Marcus Luttrell a Navy Seal who served in Afganistan and Iraq..
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Post by keaveny on Feb 18, 2008 9:22:31 GMT -5
I believe hard work has a lot to do with wealth. Where there is no direct correlation that is called the exception and not the rule.
I believe massive government is incapable of charitable acts. Citizens should be given a $1.05 tax credit for every $1 donated to charities.
I believe so long as homes and land are taxed you never own anything. Abolish every form of tax with the exception of sales tax, increase the sales tax and fund government through Americans' proclivity for consumption.
I believe I shouldn't fund public schools when my kids don't attend. Rebate my portion of funding so that I can make my own decisions about how to fund my kids' education. Better yet, make all public school tuition-based. Rather than tax citizens for running them, let them keep that money and decide where to educate their kids.
I believe in the Just War principle and remain unconvinced Iraq met the conditions. Afghanistan...perhaps. Saudi Arabia....most likely.
I believe when I pay 100% of my employees' health care that is a business advantage and why I have very little turnover. I don't believe my personal philosophy should be enforced on other companies.
I believe I have yet to see an "employee" who was ever given a job by anyone other than an "employer." "Employers," therefore should be encouraged to profit out the AS$. Remember Americans' proclivity to consume? More money in the economy means more employers giving jobs to employees. This has never worked the other way around.
That said, I have no clue whom I'll vote for, only for whom I will not vote.
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