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Post by benmiralia on Feb 18, 2008 9:32:55 GMT -5
I like Obama. That being said I could not possibly name one thing, legislative or otherwise, that he has accomplished in his political carreer. Like her or not, Clinton has a list a mile long. McCain? He's just in it for our amusement. No chance.
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Post by michaelfenoff on Feb 18, 2008 11:22:52 GMT -5
Now I don't think that making people pay for their kids education is the right thing to do, except for people who are going to private schools. Too many people would not be able to afford to send their kids to school if it was mandatory that they pay it. Yes they pay for it through property taxes, but not all people pay that... i.e. people who rent.
And i agree that we never really own our property and land so much as the gov't continues to tax it. With that, they basically own everything and Eminent Domain says they do. This is one of those instances that I see too much wrong going on up on Capital Hill.
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Post by keaveny on Feb 18, 2008 11:45:40 GMT -5
Now I don't think that making people pay for their kids education is the right thing to do, except for people who are going to private schools. Too many people would not be able to afford to send their kids to school if it was mandatory that they pay it. Yes they pay for it through property taxes, but not all people pay that... i.e. people who rent. Well, it is the obligation of the parents and not the government to educate their children. That said, giving parents their portion of tax dollars which fund education (remember there are state and federal dollars used for funding education) so that they could make their own decisions would deal with the vast majority of cases. For the exceptions, I bet if the $1.05 tax credit was adopted there would be a plethora of tuition assistance and scholarships available for education (there are plenty, now). For those still falling through the cracks, there could be a government safety net. But that should be the last resort, not the mandated way of doing business.
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Post by Jack Carney on Feb 18, 2008 16:00:12 GMT -5
You know what I think we should change this topic to something less controversial. So let's talk about abortion, social security, Terry Schiavo, or stem cell research.
Actually i love the interaction and love to hear other viewpoints. That is basically a microcosm of this great country of ours which unfortunately at some levels has become so acrimonious that our leaders wouldnt admit the other side did something good if they cured cancer.
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Post by Aussie Rob on Feb 18, 2008 16:03:32 GMT -5
I've throughly enjoyed this convo. I hope no one came away offended
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Post by Charlie on Feb 18, 2008 18:41:40 GMT -5
Offended? This is dinner time conversation in my family. I am never offended. When discussing politics with friends, I find it to be a healthy exercise and a challenge to my own beliefs.
I think it is fun.
The truth is, these three candidates kind of suck. I think they are all very moderate. I wish we had more extreme points of views represented. Pure socialists and fascists instead of the republicrats we have now. That would make things lots of fun. ...I am joking....Sorry to spell it out, sometimes I think dry humor can be lost in print.
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Post by Brent on Feb 18, 2008 18:55:31 GMT -5
The truth is, these three candidates kind of suck. Finally, something I can agree with you about.
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Post by michaelfenoff on Feb 18, 2008 19:33:38 GMT -5
agreed, I would be better president than them... moderate is boring
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Post by Aussie Rob on Feb 18, 2008 19:43:24 GMT -5
The day you become President Mike, the the day i move my family back to Aus!
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Post by keaveny on Feb 18, 2008 21:16:01 GMT -5
You know what I think we should change this topic to something less controversial. So let's talk about abortion, social security, Terry Schiavo, or stem cell research. Actually i love the interaction and love to hear other viewpoints. That is basically a microcosm of this great country of ours which unfortunately at some levels has become so acrimonious that our leaders wouldnt admit the other side did something good if they cured cancer. I am an open book. Abortion-against it. Social Security-Would rather invest my own money. Terry Schiavo-don't know enough to have an opinion but no one should ever be denied necessities of life like food and water. Stem cell research-For it as long as not cultivated from embryos. Acrimonious? Offended? Hell, I am Irish. I am only offended if you talk about my mother or support the Crown.
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Post by keaveny on Feb 18, 2008 21:18:49 GMT -5
The truth is, these three candidates kind of suck. Finally, something I can agree with you about. We always have the much-anticipated Constitution Party Convention in April.
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Post by Aussie Rob on Feb 18, 2008 21:31:54 GMT -5
You know what I think we should change this topic to something less controversial. So let's talk about abortion, social security, Terry Schiavo, or stem cell research. Actually i love the interaction and love to hear other viewpoints. That is basically a microcosm of this great country of ours which unfortunately at some levels has become so acrimonious that our leaders wouldnt admit the other side did something good if they cured cancer. I am an open book. Abortion-against it. Social Security-Would rather invest my own money. Terry Schiavo-don't know enough to have an opinion but no one should ever be denied necessities of life like food and water. Stem cell research-For it as long as not cultivated from embryos. Abortion? Against it, but don't think i have the right to force my opinions on others, and certainly don't think my opinion on the matter should be legislated. SS? For it. Great program, as long as it's funded. Terry Schiavo? From what i understand it was her wish. Again, who am i to f**k with a persons choice like that? It's the families call. Stem-cell research. For it. Those extra embryos are going to be destroyed anyway, might as well use them to try and cure cancer. Especially if the mother donates them. I wonder how many CTC members are reading this thread and just shaking their heads at us?
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Post by michaelfenoff on Feb 18, 2008 23:45:00 GMT -5
I'm always shaking my head... I don't know if voluntary or not... hum..
Anyways, by the time I'm president, I should be in my sixties, have 47 Ironmans completed and by that time all of you will be to old to care that I'm the president... We'll at least I'm hoping that so that in 2048 when I run for president you aren't all going to bash me saying that in 2008 I was a know-it-all college student which had radical ideas....
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Post by jodi on Feb 19, 2008 5:30:29 GMT -5
Terry Schiavo? From what i understand it was her wish. Again, who am i to f**k with a persons choice like that? It's the families call. Here lies the whole Schiavo debate... is it her wish or her family's wish that takes precedence? Her husband or her mom? Not here to provoke a debate, just to remind everyone to get what they want in writing. This kind of thing is NOT rare. Happens all the time in hospitals and it's very hard for parents to pull the plug on a child (no matter how old). OK, back to your scheduled presidential debate... Jodi
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Post by Brian Luther on Feb 19, 2008 9:37:35 GMT -5
I don't think there is a real left wing in the USA. I think the conservatives are right wing, and the dems are moderate. It's all relative though. I think Clinton was a moderate socially, and fiscally conservative, but he is branded as leftist because he's a dem. Real left wing liberal policies in this country are not tolerated even by liberals. You want to see real liberalism, take a look at the euros. Stuff that goes on over there would make even the most granola liberal here blush. You have to be kidding me. People are still regurgitating this rhetoric? Bush lost the opportunity to "fight them over there" when he made Afghanistan and Osama a secondary priority. Where are we now over there? Oh the Taliban are making a comeback and Osama is still on the loose. Bush took his eye off the ball, and now we don't know where the ball is or what it's doing because of his obsession with going into Iraq, which turned out to be a massive mistake and has done nothing but cost us money and lives. There was no WMD, no al qaeda, no imminent threat, nothing. He made a bad call and screwed up. I was initially for the war because i bought into the propaganda, but i was wrong and so was Bush. People need to start admitting that. Nothing fruitful has come out of Iraq. Nothing. Not even killing Saddam is a good enough reason because he wasn't the threat he was made out to be. Hell, Saddam was good for one thing atleast. He ruled with such an iron fist that al qaeda was non-existent in his country under his rule. Clinton did deal with Iraq and Saddam. In 1998 when Saddam kicked out the inspectors, Clinton bombed the crap out of him until he let them back in to do their job. Operation Desert Fox....or do the Clinton haters forget that episode? I like his way better compared to the cluster f**k Bush has gotten us into. As far as discussing politics with friends etc. I never allow politics to affect my relationships with people. Someones politics is not the whole sum of a person, so even though i can vehemently disagree with someone on a thread like this, i'll still txt them on the weekend to go for a run/ride etc and enjoy their company. This is nothing but a frank exchange of ideas.....and i think that's healthier than just talking to people you already agree with and reinforcing what you already think. I like being challenged with different perspectives and ideas. Rob, Thanks for your support in this.... I guess I was hoping to get some grounded ideas on each canidate, and its been far from that one........ B Clinton did some good, although his lies to the American public about that Monica Lewinsky crap, is what truly did him in..... Now Hillary is suffering some, from being married to that individual....... Bush Jr. only became President because we had no other choice... If Jr. had any other name, and still ran for the Presidency, he would have no chance to win....... Heck, Dennis Kucinich could of beat Jr. ..... I think its disturbing that we do not have a clear choice in quality candidates as of yet....... Brian
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Post by Brandon on Feb 19, 2008 12:10:06 GMT -5
For the radical, left-wing, tax and spend, tree huging type (I know who you are), here is a link that has a great deal of info on each candidates stance on energy and the environment. Well, the Fascist right-wing candidates have policies on this too : www.grist.org/candidate_chart_08.html
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Post by keaveny on Feb 19, 2008 12:38:18 GMT -5
I think its disturbing that we do not have a clear choice in quality candidates as of yet....... Brian I have a contrary opinion on this. In terms of understanding the national impact of policy I cannot think of two more well-versed candidates than Clinton and McCain. McCain has shown a commitment to his country in the military. I think that (even though I may not agree with entrance into some wars) is an exceptional sacrifice (something rare in politicians). Obama is inspirational but lacks experience. My biggest problem with the candidates is their bankruptcy of innovative ideas. They know SSI is going broke yet refuse to do anything about it. It can be fixed for the aged while still giving the young flexibility to invest their own money. Yet the candidates are dogmatic and use it to scare voting blocs like the AARP in order to translate into votes. It's shameful, really. I loved Jack Kemp and Phil Gramm because of their innovative ideas on economics and health savings accounts, respectively. We are not on the Gold Standard yet (Kemp), but HSA's and their cousins have become commonplace (Gramm). Then again Kemp was aloof, and Gramm was never appealing as a politician; neither gained traction. So maybe we need to look in the mirror when innovative, dynamic candidates never seem to be elected because they lack flash. We vote for flash; so who is to blame but us?
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Post by Brian Luther on Feb 19, 2008 14:22:36 GMT -5
I do favor Hillary Clinton over the "old man" and that barack hussein obama guy.....
She seems to have her head on shoulders, and would be able to execute her plans, once in office.....
Yes, Hillary and McCain have some great qualities....... Its just that I am not too confident that whom ever gets elected can start to fix our government and country..... For this to happen, we would need to elect and reelect the individuals willing to help turn things around....
From social security to simple, sound, governmental policies, "for the good of the people"...... Not special interest groups, and the lobbyists tied to the oil, drug, insurance companies....
Education, Jobs, Infrastructure, and a Unified Government is what I would like to see over the next 4 to 16 years.... Its not going happen over night, and we need to invest 110% in this country....
Help when we can overseas, yet understand we cannot police the rest of the world and other countries......
Brian
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Post by TimAckley on Feb 19, 2008 16:36:08 GMT -5
"Bush Jr. only became President because we had no other choice... If Jr. had any other name, and still ran for the Presidency, he would have no chance to win....... Heck, Dennis Kucinich could of beat Jr. ."
LMAO... You got to be kidding... I do believe Dennis ran against him twice.. but was so far down on the poles, you might have not even known he was running... maybe thats why the Congressman is in some much trouble now, spent a little to much of his time screwing off.. I do believe he missed the last two congressional votes..
Kucinich as President.. thats the funniest thing I heard all day...
If Bush only got elected for being a JR., this is funny... Then the Democrats are in serious trouble.. in fact in the 2000 election Gore won the popular vote, but lost the electoral vote which gave JR. the win.. and in 2004, if kerry won Ohio... He would have won without the popular vote..
The 2000 and 2004 elections where two of the closes presidential races in US history..
But the "Cyclism"... its back on Versus.... Tour of California is ON...
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Post by Charlie on Feb 19, 2008 17:53:08 GMT -5
Dennis Kucinich He actually has a better voting record then any other candidate running for President. Dennis has a bad record as an administrator. I don't believe he would be our best choice. I do think he acknowledges issues that the rest of the Dems won't touch. This is why I helped his campaign.
Honestly, where do any of the three standing candidates stand on anything?.
I can't tell you how many times I have heard McCain and Hillary have to explain contradictive votes and positions to Tim Russert on MTP. They have less credibility to me then does 'Roidger Clemons.
Obama- I have yet to grasp what he plans to do. Change! Believe! Whoopie! He is smooth.
As far as the 2000 elections. Come on, no one will ever know who won it. The supreme court made that decision.
Bush pulled us into war with a lie. Osama Bin Laden remains at large. FEMAs response to New Orleans was a unforgivable disaster. The dept accumulated under his watch WILL NEVER LESSON YOUR TAXES!
Bill Clinton Committed perjury. He also balanced the budget and took the greatest number of welfare recipients back to work.
The role of the President is to uphold the constitution and over see the administration of our federal government.
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Post by Jack Carney on Feb 19, 2008 18:18:23 GMT -5
Honestly, where do any of the three standing candidates stand on anything?. Are you talking about staunchly pro life Dennis Kucinich who suddenly became pro choice when he decided to run for president? McCain is strong on national security (which should be number one because without it nothing else matters) and fiscal responsibility. As I have said he was not my first choice but is far better than the other two who promise everything for everybody but can't possibly deliver it.
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Post by Brian Luther on Feb 19, 2008 18:35:35 GMT -5
Hey All! Since I sparked a lot of interest in this thread... Thanks so much for all of you opinions.......... It helps to listen to different points of view....... I do hope we all get out and vote and make the effort for our voices to be heard..... ;D ;D Brian
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Post by Charlie on Feb 19, 2008 19:21:35 GMT -5
Jack, I had to look that one up as this was news to me. Ironicly I found an article by someone named Carney in the National Review. I felt it lacked objectivity so I continued my search. I found this. www.ontheissues.org/2004/Dennis_Kucinich_Abortion.htmI am satisfied with DKs response and feel it consistent with his message. I Believe Senator McCain also had a change of heart on the abortion issue. In y2k McCain might have had my vote. I Feel he has moved to close to the current administration and I frankly do not trust them. I am not concerned that National security will be compromised by any of these candidates. We do need to rebuild many international bridges. Obama may give us a new image in the world, and globally Bill Clinton is loved. I don't think many would screw with McCain. Hillary can be one mean lady. I wouldn't screw with her. The spending bill for the war was passed by congress. All three candidates voted for it. On security issues the only differences these three have are McCain does not support engaging Iran in broad based diplomatic negotiations and wants to develop new US nuclear weapons. Obama would like to abolish nuclear weapons world wide....That is a pleasant wish. Aside from that, they echo each other. I am still very much an undecided. I want to see Someone that can run the big show and uphold the constitution. No one has emerged for me.
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Post by TimAckley on Feb 19, 2008 19:56:14 GMT -5
I heard that DK has done good for his region that he represents.. I think if he loses his spot in congress, he will be able to find a job anywhere in the UFO field...
At times, I think the Gov. needs to do away with the Democratic party and the Republican party all together and maybe then we can get things done... I hate watching when the President speaks and only the Republicans clap.. you see none of the other party clapping and vice versa.. Just so divided..
How are they supposed to make the US better if they themselves can not get along?
For me, its between McCain and I thought I would never say it, But Obama.. Never, ever would I vote for a Clinton... I still to this day do not Understand how Bill "the Lier" Clinton is loved Globaly...
Heck!!! yeah we need new Bombs.. Bush has done a good job of weeding out all the old bombs.. They did not have enough of and Impact.. Bigger better BOMBS... SHOCK and AWE!!!!!
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Post by Charlie on Feb 19, 2008 20:36:17 GMT -5
"I heard that DK has done good for his region that he represents.. I think if he loses his spot in congress, he will be able to find a job anywhere in the UFO field..."
I find his UFO story far more plausible, than I do, GOD telling GW Bush to run for president.
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Post by Aussie Rob on Feb 19, 2008 20:42:15 GMT -5
Clinton is still loved because despite him lying about the BJ on the Oval office, he was a solid president and America had some good years under him. Perfect? No, but who is?
Really? Do i care who the President fucks? No. Why? Because it doesn't have anything to do with how he runs the country.
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Post by TimAckley on Feb 19, 2008 21:42:09 GMT -5
Clinton had more problems than the thing that happened in the oval office.. He has a long list in that department...
Maybe he is well loved because of his Pardon Party in the last few days in office?
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Post by Charlie on Feb 19, 2008 21:46:20 GMT -5
I am excited to see the fate of Scooter Libby and the Rocket play out come the Bush Pardon Party. Every administration does that.
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Post by watchman on Feb 20, 2008 9:02:20 GMT -5
Really? Do i care who the President fucks? No. Why? Because it doesn't have anything to do with how he runs the country. If you are faithful in little things you will be faithful in greater things. a very wise person said this. If he cannot be faithful to his committment to his wife then he will not be faithful to his committment to our country. He has lack conviction in his heart. I was in the Air Force during his years and he did many things that directly hurt our country. It is not about politics it is about character. He cannot be trusted to do anything except what is good for him. The problem is, it seems that they are all like him now. Rob Are you married? If your wife was unfaithful to you over and over yet every time said give me another chance. Would there be a point where you say she cannot be trusted? Did you get that book by George Sada? mike
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Post by benmiralia on Feb 20, 2008 9:29:25 GMT -5
Another prescient saying is "If you lie about the little things you will lie about the big things". Clinton and Bush both fall under this category. Although in the grand scheme of things no one died from the blow job.
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