Marathon/ Triathlon question

[watchman]

I was swimming the other day and met a guy who said he has done about 10 marathons and a few I.M. Triathlons.

I told him I was doing marathon build up for the Cleveland marathon. I told him it was to motivate me to run more. To add more niles.

He said a spring marathon is a bad idea. He said that it takes a whole month to recover. He said any in jury would ruin the Triathlon season. He said that he only does fall marathlons.

My thought was that I wanted to do it early then with an emphasis on running then have a more balanced training after for Triathlons.

which way of thinking is correect?

I have been wrong before.

any thoughts?

mike

[TimAckley]

Mike...

This is just my opinion....

I think everyone has a different view on marathons.. Some people take a month, some can run the next day.. I normally take a week off after and marathon... Some even run right after the race...

I use alot of halfs to get ready for races.. I can run a half in the morning and then run again later in the afternoon.. or run the half and then ride and run in the afternoon..

I do not think there is a right and wrong.. but I think U need to figure out how your own body acts after the marathon and go from there.. You will never know until U try.. are you going to race it or use it as a training day..

Go out and have fun... I would not dewell to long on everyones else advice.. race your race and have fun.. Whos to say you will ruin the tri season by running the marathon.. look at all the bad things that can happen to you besides racing the marathon that could ruin the season..

Mental preperation is a huge factor to racing long.. getting into the right mind frame.. this guy did not help you to much there..

I think if U have trained and prepared right for it U should do good.. trust the training.. Everyone is different and every race the body I think reacts differently to the conditons... even though U might race the same course, the race could be completely different... if that makes sense..

Its a good way to kick of the season.. Have fun... and enjoy the race... I kicked off my tri season this year with the Columbus Marathon...

[watchman]

Tim

very good thoughts. Thanks

Race or training day?

I guess it depends on if I can keep up the build up schedule. I only decided to do this because my worst of the three is running. I thought it would motivate me to add more base running.

It has helped alot.

I would love to run it under 4 hours. Who knows? Some days I think I can and others ?

My original goal was just to complete it and add miles.

I need to remember the " have fun " part.

I have another question.

The marathon build up is

Monday long run (Right now 18 miles)
Tuesday easy (3 miles)
Wed. off
Thursday 5 miles
Friday 6 miles
Saturday 5 miles.
Sunday off

My question is; Because I am doing triathlon training also.
Can I substitute Bike for a couple of run days and still be ready for the marathon?

example

Monday Long run ( 18)
Tuesday swim/bike
Wed. Bike and run 5 miles
Thursday Swim /Bike
Friday 6 miles run
Saturday long bike

Does the bike ( count) toward the run?

Mike

[TimAckley]

Mike...

From what I have learned from people in the club and other groups.. and if I am wrong, maybe someone will correct me.. but none of the other two sports really help your riding, but riding helps the others, mostly the running..

So yes, your riding in subsitute of running should be fine.. your schedule is basically mine.. as long as U have the one long run a week, you should be fine... and remember to ease back on the training every 4th week, even cut it to half the volume.. sort of a rest week.. except for late build and peak weeks..

My Schedule for base and early to middle build... late build I add more Bricks and change the schedule a little..

Sunday.. Long ride or Brick
Monday.. Swim and Strength or off day

Tuesday.. Long run... My long runs... I try to run at or about 90% or better of race pace... I have been told that you cannot train for a long run at 80% and then on race day expect the body to achieve a much higher goal... It makes sense.. either that or I am killing myself for nothing...

Wednesday.. Swim and Bike
Thursday.. Run (interval) and Strength
Friday.. Swim and Bike
Saturday.. Run (tempo)

Have fun and there is always more energy on race day...

[Charlie]

I agree with tim on all he said.

As for your training plan, it looks good. I think the only thing I would adjust is the recovery time between the long bike and long run. I would also add a short brick run to your long bike.

Post marathon recovery is a good time to focus on the swim and bike workouts leading into tri season.

[Aussie Rob]

I got burned trying to ramp up my crappy running for a spring marathon as prep for a september IM. My legs just didn't tolerate mileage buildup well. That said, you've managed to do what i couldn't and remain relatively injury free, so you probably have more adaptive physiology for running compared to me. I don't think the guy is right in saying there is a hard and fast rule for people....that's just a hard and fast rule for him.

If you can take it, then i think you're doing the right thing.

[watchman]

charlie said:

I agree with tim on all he said.

As for your training plan, it looks good. I think the only thing I would adjust is the recovery time between the long bike and long run. I would also add a short brick run to your long bike.

Post marathon recovery is a good time to focus on the swim and bike workouts leading into tri season.

I agree with the adding a short brick on the Saturday bike day. I actually was think about it.

I added some bike questions in the training q& A. If you can add some thoughts there it would be great.

mike

[watchman]

another question.

the three weeks before the marathon it has me cutting back on the running . Should I also back down on the bike and swim?

Is it a run specific reduction? or an overall body training reduction before a marathon?

also I am having serious doubts about getting under 4 hours . Today seemed tough at 18 miles.

also with the marathon build up schedules I have seen . Why do they have you only going up to 20 miles before?

It seems like a big jump from 20 to 26.

Mike

[Charlie]

I wouldn't worry to much about your finish time. Just follow your training plan.
Chances are, your 18 mile run is taking close to 3 hrs. Any thing more than that has more adverse effects then benefits. Consistency and frequency will aid you more then pure mileage. What I mean is, you need to recover quickly to continue to train. Trying to add runs near four hrs won't help you do that.

During the taper, I will reduce my training hrs overall with an emphasis(reduction) on the run.

Come May 18th you will have a lot of energy. The first 10k will fly by. The last 10k will not. Your will to become a marathoner and the crowd will get you to the finish line.

[robreddy]

learning what you body can and can't handle is huge and takes years to figure out - everyone is different - i believe it is part physiology (sp???) and part how many years of base you have in you

in general a marathon is going to do a lot of damage to you body in all sorts of ways - as others have said some folks can bounce back quick but many take weeks to a month - be careful and error on the recovery side

you need to basically go with the flow on this one - until you do the mary you have no idea what your body can handle.

I would say the more apt advice is to be careful on your post marathon training - far to many become a slave to their schedule - ex. it says I gotta do X, Y and Z the weeks after my marathon so i'm gonna do it no matter how bad i feel

Don;t fall into that trap - if your body is shot from the mary - it will only become more shot by rampng up the training too fast - then you really wont have any tri season

remember you can race tris well into sept - if you need 4-6 weeks to recover from your mary that puts you at basically july 1 - get a couple weeks of good tri training in and that leaves TONS of race weekend at the end of the month, Aug and Sept

more imp dont injure your self with your marathon TRAINING - for someone with moderate base this is probably where you can do as much or more damage to you body

remember unless you are truely gifted athlete base for long endurance events (mary, HIM IM) takes YEARS and YEARS to build

and I hold a VERY STRONG opinion that moderate easy swimming is the greatest recovery tool any of us can learn. My 42 year old body will be in a pool, lake or ocean ASAP after every HIM or IM i do - and the swimming will be daily if possible for nearly 2 weeks - though I have never run a Mary I know for sure the next morning if I did I would be in a pool swimming and kicking

r

[Jack Carney]

Forget about time for the first one and just follow your plan. I made the mistake in my first marathon of trying to finish quick because I wanted to get in under four hours. My training had told me I wouldn't but my mind at mile 18 when I was still feeling good told me go for it. Lesson learned - I felt like crap at mile 22 and it was a slow painful finish. I did two subsequent marathons and thoroughly enjoyed them both because I stuck with my plan and had gas in the tank at the end.

I agree with Rob about the swimming. It is very therapeutic.

[watchman]

Rob and Jack

you guys are " in tune" . It is like you read my mind.

I was very sore from doing 18 miles yesterday and I swam today.

Did that ever feel good. It was like going for a 1 hour massage on my legs.

I totally agree . It is great for the legs.

I did extra kicking today.

I also agree I need to just get through it and not kill myself aiming for a time.

thanks for the wisdom.

The best part is how I look at running mentally.

3 or 4 months ago I would look at 5 miles as long. Now it is such a breeze .

I am seeing overall improvement at every distance.

2 weeks ago the 16 miles seemed hard. I felt great this time. It was not hard until about the last mile.

mike

[watchman]

I cannot believe it. I just noticed that I have to be in Cedarville for my sons debate tournament the same weekend of the Cleveland Marathon. Is there any others that are close and before summer?

any ideas ?

I wanted to have it out of the way to start focusing Triathlons.

I am thinking about doing the Cincinnati Marathon but that would cost me any "Tapering " time before. Can it be done? should I ?
or
I guess I could do one after summer.

let me know thought from the wise.
mike

[jodi]

Fall marathon. You won't have to sacrifice any triathlon training. Do Vegas in December. It's super fun!

Jodi

[elizabeth]

Cincinnati is only one week before Cleveland. If your plan had a 3 week taper just use a two week taper instead. If you are going into this just to run it and not race it the difference between a 2 and 3 week taper won't mean much. Many marathoners only do a 2 week taper as they lose that endurance quickly from their last long run.

[elizabeth]

oops I lied it's two weeks in that case you're on your own

[watchman]

Apr 15, 2008 7:31:19 GMT -5 jodi said:

Fall marathon. You won't have to sacrifice any triathlon training. Do Vegas in December. It's super fun!

Jodi

I think I am going to go for a fall marathon. Vegas? I doubt if my wife would be to happy if I went but I could take her with me Hmmm

Any way
a question

I have gotten up to 18 miles on the long day. What should I do?
Maintain? shift focus onto Bike and swim?

My thoughts are to keep my long days alternating between 10 and 15 miles every other week. 10 one week, then 15 , then maybe 12. Then have a recovery day, an interval day and a tempo day so I can get faster.

Is this to long on the long day? I do not want to " lose" what I have gained.

mike

[Aussie Rob]

If it were me, I would start focusing on the swim/bike more at this point. You have ample running endurance for sprints/olys which is what you're doing this year yes? ....but it will be for naught if your bike sucks, or you can't run off the bike.

[watchman]

Apr 16, 2008 10:45:47 GMT -5 Aussie Rob said:

If it were me, I would start focusing on the swim/bike more at this point. You have ample running endurance for sprints/olys which is what you're doing this year yes? ....but it will be for naught if your bike sucks, or you can't run off the bike.

thanks Rob

I have not neglected the bike. It was the best of the three for me compared to others. Every run I do some bike before so I am used to the feeling coming off the bike.

You are correct I am only doing sprints then maybe toward the end of the year an Olympic.

My question still is. How long should the long run day be? Should I maintain where I am or drop back. I will always have a " long run " day . I just wonder how long it should be. I am kinda starting to like it and do not want to go back.

mike

[Charlie]

This was in my i-gadget motivational quote thingy.

If someone says, 'Hey, I ran 100 miles this week. How far did you run?' ignore him! What the hell difference does it make?.... The magic is in the man, not the 100 miles. - Bill Bowerman

[TimAckley]

Columbus Marathon is in October... and ING Miami Marathon in late Jan.. Runs right thru Miami Beach, awesome race.. I am looking to go back in 2009

[watchman]

Apr 20, 2008 21:28:12 GMT -5 TimAckley said:

Columbus Marathon is in October... and ING Miami Marathon in late Jan.. Runs right thru Miami Beach, awesome race.. I am looking to go back in 2009

I am having serious thoughts about fall/winter marathons in warm cities like Vegas or Miami. I seemed to do more running in the winter and it would be a good motivator in the winter to not slack off. What is the Miami marathon like?

mike

[elizabeth]

I paced Tampa (Gasparilla Marathon) this February and I would highly recommend it. Fun atmosphere and fast well aided course.

[watchman]

Apr 24, 2008 15:38:59 GMT -5 elizabeth said:

I paced Tampa (Gasparilla Marathon) this February and I would highly recommend it. Fun atmosphere and fast well aided course.

what does that mean "Paced" ?

mike

[Charlie]

She keeps other runners on target to meet a specific time goal.
The consistency it takes to do this amazes me.

[TimAckley]

Mike,

Miami is flat and fast for some course.. Here is the website for u to look at if U like.. www.ingmiamimarathon.com/

I have been shipping my bike down and ride a few extra days while there and get some more running in, kinda a nice extended training weekend.. I rode with a local bike club and a CTC member who lives down there now.. temps this year were in the 70's and 80's late Jan.

The scenery is just awesome... and so much to do after and before the race.. and the flight down is pretty fast.. its like 2:40:00

[elizabeth]

Mike I was the 3:50 pacer. So I carry a sign with 3:50 on it and try to run as even pace as possible so that anyone who intends to run a 3:50 that day can run with me and be assured that they don't go out too fast or too slow and that they will run an even pace race (the best way to run a marathon)

I'll be the 3:50 pacer at Akron this year if anyone is looking to run a sub 4 there I'll see you at the start line

[watchman]

Apr 25, 2008 11:08:46 GMT -5 elizabeth said:

Mike I was the 3:50 pacer. So I carry a sign with 3:50 on it and try to run as even pace as possible so that anyone who intends to run a 3:50 that day can run with me and be assured that they don't go out too fast or too slow and that they will run an even pace race (the best way to run a marathon)

I'll be the 3:50 pacer at Akron this year if anyone is looking to run a sub 4 there I'll see you at the start line

What is the Akron Marathon like? I hear different things about these races. Some are good others??

I would like to do it in 3:50. The extra time should help.

I was on an 18 week build-up for the Cleveland. Since this a few months away. What do I do? do I wait and repeat the 18 week schedule? Do I try and stay where I am ? Do marathon runners keep up the same milage year around ?

mike

[Charlie]

My tendency is to repeat training plans that I have come to trust. If the 18 week works well for you, then stick with it. You do want to repeat the build. It is part of the recovery process.

[watchman]

Apr 24, 2008 15:38:59 GMT -5 elizabeth said:

I paced Tampa (Gasparilla Marathon) this February and I would highly recommend it. Fun atmosphere and fast well aided course.

Elizabeth ( or anyone who knows)

This marathon in Tampa

What is it like as far as flat or hills?

is it a marathon to get a fast time?

also what other good fall marathons are there?

mike