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Post by kenb321 on Jan 19, 2011 10:15:22 GMT -5
SI is coming out with an in depth story about how the Lance teams doped during his run as TDF champ. How many teammates, adversaries, acquaintances need to come out before everyone thinks he cheated?
This would be the greatest fall ever for an athlete if he cheated.
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Post by MattCollister on Jan 19, 2011 10:34:23 GMT -5
Show me a pair of positive tests and I'll believe he doped.
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Post by Aussie Rob on Jan 19, 2011 14:00:54 GMT -5
Of course he did.
He not only beat everyone for 7 years, but he beat a lot of guys who are also freaks of nature and have been busted themselves. So, I'm supposed to believe that he's so good that not only could he consistently beat the other freaks, but he beat them while they were doping....and he did it clean?
It defies logic and common sense.
That said. I find this whole thing to be a complete waste of time and money, going after a guy who is retiring from international racing, for something he did years ago, that has no real effect on important things in this world. It's friggen bike racing!
Leave it alone, let the cycling fans go on believing what they know to be true, and let the Lance fans go on believing he's magic.
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Post by MarkD on Jan 20, 2011 21:33:41 GMT -5
I gotta follow Aussie's logic here.  |
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Post by MattCollister on Jan 21, 2011 11:21:59 GMT -5
I'll concede on common sense  . But 7 in a row, while unprecedented, is not totally off the scale. Others: Indurain, Mercx, etc., won 5 in a row. Allen and Scott won 5 IMs in a row. Paula Newby won, what, 8? Edwin Moses won 400-some races in a row. And it's been a few years since my last class on logic, but I think argument: he beat guys who were proven to be on drugs, therefore he (or any winner) must be on drugs, seems, technically, a logical fallacy of generalization. Would I be surprised if he doped? I suppose not. Maybe I'm totally naieve for offering the benefit of the doubt, but its gotten me this far generally just fine. |
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Post by Eric on Jan 21, 2011 11:56:17 GMT -5
I'm with Aussie on the last half of his comment......who cares. It's not going to change the world, has no direct impact on me, there are other things to worry about.
Matt...Edwin Moses was awesome. I loved watching him compete.
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Post by Tim Edwards on Jan 21, 2011 12:30:33 GMT -5
Aussie fails to take into account the huge attention to detail that Lance brought to the sport across the board from training, equipment, team structure, power based training, etc. I could go on and on about how his team revolutionized cycling when other teams just went out and rode their bikes to get in form. He is a genetic freak and had awesome scientific, organizational, and coaching support that was cutting edge.
I agree with Matt on the logic. The Browns beat the Patriots and the Saints, therefore they were shafted by not being allowed a bye to get into the Superbowl bypassing the playoffs? Same logic they are using with Lance.
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Post by MarkD on Jan 21, 2011 20:45:29 GMT -5
Yeah, but the Patsies and 'Aints showed their true colors in the playoffs.... Don't ever compare a legend to a team who's core foundation is based on losing d*mn... I think I just jinxed my Steelers.... I would like to see Lance do an IM. |
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Post by Aussie Rob on Jan 22, 2011 9:41:25 GMT -5
Mercx tested positive in 1969 and 1973. Anquetil was open about his drug use, so was Coppi. Fignon got busted in 1989. Riis won the tour on dope and admitted it years later.
More recently, Basso, Ullrich, DiLuca, Landis, Hamilton, Vinokourov, Ricco, Kohl, Valverde, Contador; a veritable who's who of professional cycling and Grand Tour winners have all been caught. Yet Lance, Lance is special; Lance is clean.
C'mon.
If you're a cycling fan, then there are certain things you have to accept. I like Lance a lot, and i wish they'd just leave him the F alone....but i think it's naive to say "oh he's a genetic freak"....dude, all of the guys listed above are too! We think IM is hard? Take a look at the friggen Giro's route this year!
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Post by Aussie Rob on Jan 22, 2011 20:25:32 GMT -5
To Matt's point though, you're right about the logical argument....d**n scholars! I fall back on common sense though....which fortunately hasn't been quantified yet....so bullshitters like me can still claim it. |
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Post by Janet E on Jan 24, 2011 21:07:36 GMT -5
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Post by christian on Jan 26, 2011 10:02:40 GMT -5
So what's Chrissie? Really good or a doper?
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Anna
Sprint Member
Posts: 27
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Post by Anna on Jan 26, 2011 13:24:00 GMT -5
Haha good find Janet  "Everybody that rides a bike period is probably on drugs." Looks like we may have a serious problem in this club.... |
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Post by timritt on Jan 26, 2011 15:57:55 GMT -5
i thought they rode bikes just so they could shave their legs. the drugs were just an added bonus.
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Post by Aussie Rob on Jan 26, 2011 17:14:50 GMT -5
"Who rides bikes in your neighborhood? Crack-heads" gold To answer your question Christian, i think it's more a question of "does triathlon have the same doping culture, infrastructure, and history as cycling?" I don't think it does, so i like to think Chrissy is clean. Who knows though. |
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Post by philjolliff on Jan 26, 2011 19:44:54 GMT -5
Even if Lance was a doper, gotta give him credit for not getting caught with a positive test when all the other guys were dropping like flies. Goes back to his planning and execution.
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Post by kabaker13 on Jan 27, 2011 10:52:43 GMT -5
Or is it as simple as how he may have been treating post-orchiectomy? Since he did have one testicle removed, it stands to reason that some sort of HRT ought to have been taking place and if he was showing "normal" levels rather than elevated, anti-doping agencies wouldn't have thought twice about it. It's just like professional body building. People know that most, if not all of those guys are "on". Unfortunately, cycling seems to be following suit.
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Post by Aussie Rob on Jan 27, 2011 12:33:55 GMT -5
I think most pro sports are dirty. The irony of cycling is that because they're the only ones really truly making an effort to catch dopers, they actually do, which makes the sport appear disproportionally dirty.
You have to wonder what would happen if all sports had the testing regiment of cycling? How many heros would fall?
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Post by Eric on Jan 27, 2011 16:09:55 GMT -5
Spot on Aussie. How can you say that baseball and football are clean. The unions have made sure the athletes are not bothered. You can read about cyclists and triathletes having drug testers showing up at their doors all the time. Could you imagine what would happen if that was the case in the major sports in the US?
You can also look at the world of track and field. A lot of the sprinters were getting busted a couple years ago.
kabaker....I never thought about testosterone levels. I'm pretty sure Lance had both testicles removed. Interesting point though.
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Post by kabaker13 on Jan 27, 2011 16:59:59 GMT -5
I think it was just one Eric, but I'd have to check. I was thinking that would be the easiest way for him to slip through the cracks being that the tests are looking for elevated levels and not set for someone whose levels may be diminished due to medical circumstances.
Aussie's right about all sports though. In the documentary Bigger, Strongger, Faster, they make a good point. "Is it really cheating if everyone is doing it?" One of the doctors they interviews asked the question "if this was what you had to do to keep your job, would you do it?" If anyone wants to check that DVD out, let me know and I'll let you borrow it.
Kelly
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. But 7 in a row, while unprecedented, is not totally off the scale. Others: Indurain, Mercx, etc., won 5 in a row. Allen and Scott won 5 IMs in a row. Paula Newby won, what, 8? Edwin Moses won 400-some races in a row. 
"Everybody that rides a bike period is probably on drugs." Looks like we may have a serious problem in this club....