Ironman pacing

[Aussie Rob]

You hear a lot about taking it easy in an IM and not blowing your stack too early on the bike, but ive been thinking today - how fast is too fast? I've been training with HR recently, and have almost narrowed down my zones which is great.....but the numbers are still largely useless to me except for long runs where im trying to limit my HR and stay in zone 2, or tempo runs where im trying to keep it above a certain number. I want to start playing with pacing in the coming months and through the summer; to hopefully have an idea of how to pace myself in September, but i need help. Here's what im thinking as of today.

I'm thinking that the IM swim is nothing but a long slow warmup in my book; thats how im going to treat it anyway. I don't care if i get out in 1:10 or 1:20....i just want to get out feeling fresh with my HR nice and low (60-70% of max).

I figure the run is basically going to be a battle of attrition. Start out slow (60% of max) and just keep moving as best i can. If i have anything left in the last 10miles (which i doubt), maybe, just maybe consider stepping it up a notch. But in reality, i expect to be walking at some point.

The bike is where i need the most help. What should i be aiming to keep my HR at for the first 40 miles? When do you kick it up a notch? How high is too high? How on earth do you maintain a HR goal on a course like Wisconsin that has lots of hills that WILL spike your HR? Do you stay around 65-70% of max for the first loop, then move it up to 70-80% for the second?

I know we have lots of ironmen here, and lots of people that use HR monitors. Any and all guidance at this point is helpful.

[Aussie Rob]

One other question. Anyone have a good way to figure out their true max HR? So far ive used some of the formulas that utilize my resting HR/age/activity level....but i'd like to see some real world numbers. I'd hate to train/race in zone determined by a formula that ends up putting me in the wrong zone. I'll either go too fast and blow up, or ill go too slow and not maximize my potential.

Im thinking on the bike tonight ill go out with the A group, which will have a 15 warmup along the flats with a small incline to spike the HR, then when we hit the first real hill go balls out and see what number i get.

For the run i was thinking about doing a 15min warmup, then a hill, then bring it back down, then really attack the second hill repeat.

Good method? or flawed?

[bberk1]

Time trials will definitely help raise the HR pretty close to your max. If you pass out you know for sure where your max is. Seeing the light is getting close.

[Aussie Rob]

So i should be seeing spots when im approaching my max? Interesting, something to aim for

[Angie]

Personally, I like using lactate threshold instead of max HR to measure intensity. Most articles I have read prefer this as well. See this article.

www.performancetrainingsystems.com/newstips/tips_lttp.html

Do others use this method instead of max HR?

ANGIE

[andrew]

Rob it is all going to be dependent on your own expectations, your own ability and how the day is shaping up for you come race day

A very good indicator of how your day is going is how you are feelign at mile 80 on the bike. If you still feel good - you're pace has been ok - if you are struggling at mile 80 - then you'd better review the rest of the day ahead quickly

My HR goals for an IM bike are 135-145 for the first 56 miles - then 145 - 155 for the next 56 miles.

I use the old fashioned way of estimating Max HR - 220 less your age (not extremely accurate - but a nice indicator for me anyway)

I'm not real scientific

[Aussie Rob]

Me either typically, although i figure im putting in all this hard work, might as well try to squeeze out the maximum benefit.

Angie! You're a goddess! This is exactly what im looking for but couldnt find! Figuring out an accurate base, then having the zones calculated. I was only using max HR because that's how i thought you determined your zones. When i think about it, using LT is better anyway because the real goal is to make sure you stay aerobic on the bike for most of it. If you dip into the anaerobic reserves and burn all your glycogyn you're for sure going to burn out right? (thats my basic understanding anyway)

[TimAckley]

I could not agree with U more about the swim being a nice warn up for the day.. I sometimes feel better on a ride after I have swam, then if I have not…

I believe the IM is about the bike and mostly the run.. you can have a 1:20 swim and still post a very nice time with a excellent bike and run..

I do not use a heart rate monitor much, only because U hear them going off everywhere.. Some people started to run again and thirty steps later the thing goes off again.. I believe an IM is about pushing yourself at some point and the watch is more or less telling U to back off.. I understand its telling U that U R body is working to hard.. I think if unless U R and elite athlete or someone who is just plain talented, your are going to have to push your body beyond that point at sometime or another.. Just my two cents.. We basically know when racing when our body is telling us to slow down.. I am sure the Heart Rate enthusiasts will disagree with me.. I think at times we rely to much on electronics..

The bike pacing I am working on myself.. I went from a 6:45 to a 7:01 to just recently a 6:36.. and I know I can get it down from there.. I focused on a nice pace for the first 85 miles and pushed the last 27 miles.. I took that advice from someone in the club and it made my T2 much better… I starting to see that a good bike pace plan helps out the run alot…
I think its the bike that makes or breaks the day..

And the run off the bike.. I think for my next IM in June I am going to do more long rides around 90 miles followed up with a 15 - 18 mile run around 85-90% race pace, late build, maybe early peak... I think it’s the only way to really achieve a good race day scenario… Someone at the race this past weekend mentioned this to me and I am going to try it for my June race..

I do the long ride and run on separate days now… and longer bricks, but nothing like the 90 mile followed by a 15-18 mile run… usually just and hour run after my ride… but on race day I am out there 4 hours or more, so what does the hour run after a long ride do for me, except make the first hour of the run more manageable..

This is what is so great about the sport, what works for someone might not work for U.. or what worked at one race, might not work at another..

[Jack Carney]

Here is a basic rule of thumb calculation that is pretty accurate in my case:

210 minus 50% of your age minus 5% of your body weight (pounds) + 4 if male and 0 if female = Estimated Maximum heart rate.

As far as picking up the pace with ten miles to go I would not recommend that. I remember my first marathon where I felt great at mile 18 so I picked up the pace and felt like crap 4 miles later. This is your first IM so just stay at a comfortable pace all day and whatever will be will be. To blow up because you wanted to get in a few minutes early is not worth it.

HRs on the bike especially in a venue like MOO are all over the board with the ups and downs. Just take it easy, listen to your body and enjoy. It is better to do a slower bike and enjoy the run than crawl in because you pushed too hard.

[Angie]

Yes... you will burn out if you do too much time in the anaerobic zone. I have no knowledge of ironman pacing and will leave that to the experts but I have had many years of success with the lactate threshold training in short course.

A 5K race is a perfect distance to measure run LTHR and I use pete's CVNP time trials to get my bike LTHR... they are different. Run is about 182 and bike is around 178. From what I have seen... this is typical to have a run threshold higher than the bike.

I have a tendency to be overly scientific about my training.... which make sense because I am a scientist !!! You should see my training book collection

[MattCollister]

I read or heard somewhere once that if you think you're going too slow (on the bike), then you're going just right.

Then, there's always Gordo's pacing maxim: Hammer the bike, walk the run.

[MarkD]

Rob -

Forget pacing !!!

Hammer that f*#%Er !!!

Its better to burn out - then fade away !!

No fear, mate. It's only 600 bucks !

[andrew]

Rob

In all seriousness - contact Dave Miceli - I will give credit where it is due and Dave's IM prep is methodical, well prepared and very much geared towards a pace system to ensure he is consistently hitting his goals all day

I am sure he can give you some insight into how he approached his first IM - Matt C's words are very true - you should not be pushing outside of your comfort level on the bike - the bike sets you up for the run - which no matter how good of a bike you have - can be completely undone with a long and miserable 26 mile hike/run/jog

As an example - IMAZ 2005 - my times were decent for my first race in about 5 years - 1.30 swim (paced WAY too conservatively), 6hr bike - windy day and paced pretty much spot on - felt great off the bike and felt great all day on the bike.

Run - complete disaster - sick to my gut at mile 2 - rolled an ankle at mile 3 and stupidly limped 23.2 miles in a grand ol time of 8hrs30mins

total race time - 16hrs 10 mins.

hey - it was a finish - so it's not a bad thing - but there are very few things I have ever experienced as painful and demoralizing as spending more than half my entire race time out on the run course.

not that this has anything to do with bad pacing - BUT - bad pacing can lead to the same result - a miserable F*&^ing afternoon/evening which may or may not result in a finish

better to take half an hour longer on the bike to save your self an hour on the run!!

remember mate - more time on the bike may mean a sore butt - but more time running means sore knees, feet, ankles, head - you name it - it all hurts!

Rob - feel free to email me your Ph # and we can chat brother!!

[Aussie Rob]

I hear what you're all saying.

I love the bike. It's easily the best thing about triathlon. But because of that, if im stupid (like ive been known to be many a time!) ill have a real crack at it on race day and ruin my run. That's why im thinking long and hard about this now.

Durno, i'm gonna have to find a oly....and hammer THAT!

Sorry, had a really good ride tonight and feel a little welch like (i have no business saying that ofcourse! The guys a legend. ) I'm just so happy about my training etc recently.....triathlon f**k**g rocks

[andrew]

Rob - sent you an email

Just remember - if you pace properly - you'll feel (especially the first 56 miles) like you are going too slow - and people WILL pass you

But you can guarantee - you will see a lot of those people again real soon - as you pass them

don't get caught in the moment - let them go by

and you nailed it - the bike is your favorite leg and you should use your love for it to enjoy the time you spend on it during the race - pace, fuel and plan the rest of your day

[TimAckley]

Andrew and Matt said it best.. I met a guy Monday night after the IMAZ race who did 6 previous IM's and he was one of the 337 dnf's.. he never made it thru the bike portion.. The race has no mercy on anyone..

I am sure U will do great at your race.. especially if this is your first one.. I think the first one U do, U have so much drive and determination to get to the end.. My first was my favorite so far..

[Aussie Rob]

Thanks for the vote of confidence, but I'm scared shitless!

[Charlie]

That is good. You don't want to do that on the bike.

I stuck with a cadence goal on the bike. It seemed to work well for me.
I don't want to depend on heart rate during a race. I raced the rite aid 1/2 by HR last year. When I started getting cross talk from other sources the HR monitor became useless. I waisted energy and time trying to correct the issue.