Long Distance Fueling

[Delia]

Hello,

I was on a 4 1/2 hour bike ride today. I had one water bottle filled with water and 1 scoop of Hammer HEED and one bottle filled with water and 1 scoop of Hammer Perpetuem. At the 1/2 way turnaround, I refilled both bottles with water and the same fuel. In also ate 1 1/2 Hammer Almond Raisin bars. About a 1/2 hour past the half way point, I started feeling nauseus and fatigued. It just got worse until I finshed and, well, the feeling of nauseum manifested itself in reality (it wasn't pretty).

Has this happened to anyone before? Where did I go wrong. The only real change was the Perpetuem, but it was also very warm today and my ride had a lot of intense hills.

Any suggestions-thoughts would be appreciated.

[michaelfenoff]

your going to have to try to eat/ drink different stuff untill you find out what works best for you. What works on short course, may not work on the long course for you. I know that I go through about 3-4 bottles of gatorade on a 4-5 hour ride. I also eat approx. 3-4 powerbars in that period. If you feel fatigued, it is probably a lack of calories and fluids. Try to increase your fluids a bit. REMEMBER- if you feel thirsty, you are already dehydrated. best thing is to push the liquids and set a schedule for the food. I eat a bar every hour and a gel if I think I need more.

Again, it's all what you think you need. But play around now, not in a race. Whatever you do know is going to be the best for you.

[delia]

Thanks Mike. The more I think about it, the major problem was probably the lack of straight water. I only have two water bottle cages on my bike, so I was not carrying any straight water. All of the fuel must have just become sludge in my belly. I will keep working on it during training and not rule out Perpetuem so fast. I will also get extra water bottle cages for behind my seat!

[jetlink]

Hey Delia -

It is great that you have an exact account of what you took in on your ride. I have found that on hot days the Perpetium can be upsetting to MY stomach.....I think this may be due to the protein in it but regardless, on really hot days I will avoid the perpetium.

If you are using HEED than maybe substitute that for the Perpetium.....just double up the HEED bottles and forget about the Perpetium.

On a bigger note, it seems as if your calories may have been a little low. I'm looking at the math and it seems your intake was as follows per 2.25hour period (since you refilled at the half point)
1 scoop of HEED = 100 calories (0 grams protein)
1 scoop of Perpetuem = 130calories (3grams protein)
1/2 hammer bar = 110calories (5grams protein)

So, lets put this into total - you rode for 2.25hrs (twice) and on each session you took in a total of 340calories. So, lets break it down even more - per hour you consumed approximately 151 calories per hour - that is wayyy wayyyy low in my opinion.

Also, you consumed two bottles of fluid (assuming they were empty when you re-filled). How many ounces were the bottles? I'll guess around 20ounces so that will put your 2.25hr ride ounces of fluid at 40 ounces or approximately 17ounces of fluid per hour - again, in my opinion that is really low.

So, what would I suggest for you - First of all congratulations on KNOWING EXACTLY what you took in on your ride. This is really really good and you should pat yourself on the back for doing this. The good news also is that you will probably not feel ill on the next ride because you can make exact adjustments to your nutrition plan.

Lets try this on your next 4hour ride (I put 4hr for simplicity) :

Lets aim for 24-28ounces of fluid per hour (try to buy the 24ounce bottles if you can)
Lets aim for 300 calories per hour.....just add more scoops as appropriate.

How can you do this and make sure you get in all the fluids and calories....(I mean, this is going to be a whole lot more than you are used to ) well, lets try this if you want:

Starting right from the start of the ride (regardless if you are thirsty or not):

10minute mark - big drink of water
20minute mark - 4 big gulps of Heed
30 minute mark - 1/2 hammer gel or bar and water
40 minute mark - 4 big gulps of Heed
50 minute mark - big drink of water
60minute mark - 4 big gulps of Heed (plus if you want - two salt tablets)
-repeat every hour and add fluid if you want in between but make absolute sure to hit nutrition on every 10minute cycle.......this will seem like work at first but soon it'll be habit and you will be AMAZED at how good you feel!!

If you try this - let me know how it goes.......best of luck and once again great job on understanding your own nutrition and how much you actually took in.

Happy training -

Dave

[delia]

Thanks so much Dave. I have never had anyone spell out nutirition so clearly for me - I really appreciate it. I will definitely try your plan and see how I feel. I knew I was low on fuel, but when your stomach feels ill, it is hard to keep eating/drinking.

Good to know about the Perpetuem on sunny days. It is amazing how much the sun can effect training performance. I better get used to it though, my first IM is Arizona in 08!

[jetlink]

Hey Delia-

With your dedication now to your nutrition and training, I think your well underway to nailing IMAZ.

Now, remember you started to have your stomach issues a little past the mid-point of the ride. You rarely ever hear a person say "Oh I was feeling horrible at the start of the race" but I'm sure you've heard "I was feeling great untill mile (blank)".....same thing that happened to you today....its was a bit of a bonk - no big deal as this is what training is for and this is how you figure out what works for you on race-day.

So, I think if you hydrate and eat properly than you will not have those stomach issues and therefore you will then be able to maximize your performance if you stay within your limits. Remember, the key is to start that nutrition right from the start - even when your not hungry or thirsty. Always simulate your race aswell at the start of your ride....in AZ you will come out of the water with a high heartrate....so, you won't feel like eating or drinking much and your immediate concern will be to get your heartrate down. So, with the plan I outlined for you, you will not have any calories for the first 20minutes of your ride...also use this time to start off the ride nice and smooth and easy......just like you will in AZ 08'

Best of luck and let me know how it goes - good or bad!!

Take care,

Dave

[benmiralia]

Delia.....I agree with Dave about Perpetuem on hot days. You may want to pick up some "sustained energy" it is also a Hammer product, but without most of the protein. It helped me a lot. Also, keep in mind that perpetuem begins to spoil after a few hours in the sun so it's a good idea not to mix it to long before you plan on using it.

[gvale]

Delia,

I am not an expert on the fueling part and I totally agree with what Dave is saying in regards to the timing of comsumption.

For IM training, I usually train with what they provide on the course. That way when race day comes, my body is ready for it. I did however take a 20 ounce bottle of Red Bull on the bike just incase I was bonking on the climbs.

With that said, my mouth was really dry during the run at IMFL and IMLP. I was thinking that at Florida, it was from the salt water swim, but I experienced the same at LP. Now I am convinced its my enduaralytes. If any one can shed some light on this, let me know.

Cya in Tempe!

George

[TimM]

Delia,

I had some trouble with my fueling while training for IMLP and put a post onto my online coaches site. This is the response that I got from the site's dietician. I am a 200 lb man, so I assume my calorie intake is going to be greater than yours, but it will at least confirm what Dave was saying above. My first reaction was that your fluid intake was too low.

quoted from dietician on my online coaches website:

As your pre-race fueling worked well (no gut distress) I recommend that you do not increase your calorie intake in your pre-race fueling from solid food. Nothing will destroy your race as quickly as gut shut down.

Drinking up to a quart of Gatorade Endurance prior to the swim is an excellent idea

I think waiting 30 minutes before fueling on the bike is a good idea to let your gut settle after the swim.

Hydration comments: the fact that you were urinating suggests good hydration. You noted that you lost 5 lb (2.5% of body weight) in this rehersal. That's not bad for a heavily sweating large man. The key is to not lose any more than this and perhaps lose less (< 4 lb). When you started to feel badly on the bike, I suspect it was due to dehydration rather than bonking (drop in blood glucose).

Possible causes of the large amount of dried salt on your body:
1) You lost a large amount of water from sweating. When this evaporates to cool you off, you're left with dried salt.
2) You lose a large amount of sodium in your sweat. An average sweat sodium loss is about 800 mg per 2 lb (1 quart) of sweat.
3) A combintion of 1 and 2

Gatorade Endurance provides 800 mg per quart, which should be enough sodium to replace your sweat sodium losses. When you note you drank one bottle of Gatorade E per hr, was this 24 oz or 32 oz? You may benefit by drinking more Gatorade E (32 oz per hour) and less water.

While low dose salt tablets can be helpful to replace sweat sodium losses and prevent muscle cramps, you really need to work with them in training. Thus, I do not recommend trying them out in your race. Too much sodium (usually only happens when you take salt tablets) can cause gut distress and make you swell up like a tick.

Bike fueling comments: overall you did a great job fueling yourself on the bike. Based on your body weight, you can consume about 90 grams of carbohydrate or 360 calories per hour. Your average calorie intake per hour (2200 calories over 6 hours) was 366 calories per hr.

My recommendation -- follow this same fueling plan on the bike. Try to carry the same PowerGel and Cliff bar flavors that you used in your RR.

Run fueling/hydrating comments: one quart of Gatorade E per hour provides 200 calories and 800 mg sodium. This should nearly replace your sweat water and sodium losses and you can drink added water as needed. One gel provides 100 calories. If you combine one qaurt of Gatorade E and one gel, you'll consume 300 calories per hour. This could be a bit high for the run. For the first hour of run, consider just using Gatorade E (though have the gel on hand). You can always take the gel if you need to. It's much harder to deal with gut shut down than low blood sugar.

Run pacing comments: consider alternating running and walking from the first mile. You can maintain a faster pace doing this than running until you can't run and staggering into the finish.

[Jack Carney]

Hi Delia,

Do yourself a favor and listen to Dave he really knows his stuff on nutrition for long course like no one I have seen. He is really analytical and I have used his posts as a guideline to try to get my own nutritional needs nailed down and it has helped a lot. I have had issues like you had and it was for the same reasons - lack of calories and fluids.

I have also found another fuel I love that a lot of the long course folks here use. It is called Carbo Pro and it makes it very easy to pack a lot of calories into a bottle so you don't have to worry about carrying so much with you. When i first got it I put one scoop in a water bottle which is 120 calories and it didn't even taste like there is anything else but water in there. You can also mix it with Accelarade or Gatorade and make it taste good for you or just leave it plain. I have had zero problems with stomach upset with the Carbo Pro.

The main thing as others have said is train with what you are going to use and experiment until you have it down.

[delia]

Thanks everyone! I appreciate all of the input. Nutrition is such a science and it is nice to get the expertise of those who have tried and succeeded.

[robreddy]

there is more good info in this thread than i have seen in a LONG time. Dave probably put it the best and in very understandable terms (well at least for me nd i have tough time with the nutrition mumbo jumbo)

one things i have found is - as ANY of this nutrition stuff gets war it upsets my stomach - this has happened to me a lot of times - and i recall reading something about liquid nutrition that is cool/cold is absorbed more easily by the body - not sure if that is true or not but I know for me it goes in better.

on sure sign that you are not getting enough calories in is when you start to loose the ability to concentrate and/or you start to feel sleepy - i get both of these feeling - clue in to what your body is telling you

i'm a fan of the carbo pro also

experiment as much as you can

r

[gvale]

Like I said before, I train with whats on the course. That way I don't have to worry about my stuff getting warm or dropping a bottle.

OK..... so I get to Penticton and I find out that there is no Gatorade Endurance formula available in Canada and only regular formula will be on the course. Now what? Plan 2. Double my enduralyte intake and drink around 1/2-3/4 bottle of Gatorade between aid stations.

Another challenge was that these bottles are in milliliters not ounces. So I decided to go by whats left in the bottle and not try converting the metric system.

Usually, I pee 4-5 times during the Ironman bike split. Now.... I really need break the seal around mile 90 climbing up to Yellow Lake. Just the pressure on my bladder, I knew I was fine with hydration. Unfortunately with all the fans lining the road on the climb, I was not able to go and I certainly was not going to pull over. I thought maybe on the decent , but it was one of the scariest descents I have ever rode down.
So by that time, I thought I would just take care of business at T2. Thus the reason for a slower transition time.

Once on the run. I took a glass Gatorade, coke and water every aid station. Few cups of broth when my calf's started cramping.

Had a little stomach issues but nothing that I couldn't work through.

So I guess my point is, Gatorade Endurance formula is way overrated unless you want to spend allot of time peeing.

I have spent allot of time thinking on ways to improve my nutrition strategies and at IMAZ, I will reduce my intake of Gatorade Endurance and supplement it with enduaralytes and water. I will add power bar shakes on the bike and take caffeine and broth on the run. Quantity still to be determined

[MattCollister]

Were you peeing in milliliters too?

[gvale]

EY? They are on the metric system in Canada. So that would be a YES.

[TimAckley]

I use Heed and Infinit, but not Perpetuem for IM racing, only because its way to much to worry about the mixture and keeping it cold and the length of time it is good for..

The statement below is right off the Hammer website about Perpetuem.. Maybe U have seen this.. One of the last things I want to worry about is whether I just downed a bad drink or one that is almost a bad drink.. To me this drink makes sense to be used when there is a team car to keep it cold and U fueled while cycling..

How soon after I make Sustained Energy or Perpetuem do I have to drink it?

Ideally, it should be within 3-5 hours, with up to perhaps 6-8 hours (depending on the temperature) being the longest we recommend. Dr. Bill Misner explains:
“Energy drink powders containing no preservatives are predisposed to change once set in solution mixtures. Time, temperature, humidity, environmental airborne or endogenous microbes, oxidation factors may cause fatty acids to turn rancid or proteins to “sour” in the presence of long chain or short chain carbohydrates. A prime example is found in pasteurized milk. Milk typically sours in stages as one type of bacteria is replaced by another. Bacilli convert protein into ammonia products, and the pH rises. The odor or taste of spoiled milk is apparent once this has happened. We have observed this phenomenon in our soy-based products, Sustained Energy and Perpetuem if the product is mixed prior to an event then not kept cold or consumed within 3-5 hours.

Athletes should be encouraged to keep pre-mixed protein-enhanced or lipid-containing carbohydrate drinks under 59° F or ideally at a cooler 40-45° F in order to keep fermentation of environmental bacteria from proliferating in the drink mixture. Freezing the drink the night before an event may result in keeping the macronutrient contents in tact an inhibiting bacterial growth potential. Once the drink is soured to taste or has become noxious to olfactory sensed odor, then it is advised that the drink not be consumed.”

Thought I would pass that on...

Maybe see you in April at IMAZ, unless u are doing the fall race... Good luck to you..