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Post by MarkD on Dec 15, 2010 14:15:24 GMT -5
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Post by philjolliff on Dec 15, 2010 15:26:00 GMT -5
Sooooooooooo glad you are bringing this up as I saw that on your FB wall the other day. I read that article as well and to give them credit, A LOT of people follow the Endurance Nation training plans, and this is certainly a bold statement. I don't know if I find it as WRONG as you do though I don't necessarily think it is RIGHT for me ;D "Twice as long to train" - Agree this depends on pool location, but their argument is that you can run and bike during the winter with ZERO travel time, so it definitely does take more time, but I agree it is probably an exaggeration. Although I do enjoy being able to get on my bike in the basement with almost no prep time. Here is my one argument in favor of this. I can get up at 5 AM throw on my bike shorts and be on my bike by 5:05 and do a 1 hour bike ending at 6:05; still have to shower and go to work. Swimming I get up at 5 AM have to pack my bag for the day (work clothes/swim stuff), get out the door at 5:15; to the pool at 5:30; start swimming at 5:40; swim for 1 hour; done at 6:40, still have to shower and go to work, swimming took about 35 minutes longer for the same total workout TIME of 1 hour. Less Rest - Hmmmmmmmm. Depending on when/where your master's swim workout is, this might be a possibility, but you should be getting up early anyway to bike or run. From my example above though, I could grab 35 minutes of "extra" sleep with the same workout time, and still get to work at the same time. But really, couldn't I just go to bed 35 minutes earlier? I have heard others mention no swimming during the winter before; and I think it could be valid for some people. If you are a swimmer with VERY GOOD form or in other words, a fish, I think you could get away with this. In terms of # of workouts - instead of 3 bikes, 3 runs, 3 swims, a really good swimmer could do 4 bikes and 5 runs and get a lot better at what I am assuming are their weaker sports. Then in March or April get back in the pool and get yourself back into swim shape - maybe you are 1 minute slower in an Olympic swim this year (doubtful) - I bet you more than made up for it in the bike/run. I could never do this though, at least not yet..... I am what the author describes as "The Rock" and I need all the time I can get working on my form and endurance in the water. Any improvements I make in form and/or endurance in the water could net me HUGE time gains in the water; just as huge as the other sports. I have a 3 sport weakness.....  |
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Post by Angie on Dec 16, 2010 8:10:04 GMT -5
I thought this was an interesting argument but agree that depends on the individual. I am one of those who will reduce my swimming over the winter in place of bike and run workouts. I have been swimming since I was four so it seems pretty natural. While I am not the fastest in the water-- I have found that extra swim workouts do very little to improve my times in OW. The greatest negative to no swimming is that my muscles fatigue very quickly when I do get back in the pool.. this is not fun. In general, if I get in the pool 1-2 times per week in the winter I am happy.
Plus getting in the water when it is so cold is often very unappealing ;D
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Post by MarkD on Dec 16, 2010 8:27:08 GMT -5
Both of you make perfect sense.
For those of us who don't come from a swimming backgroud - amazing gains can be made in this sport. I've taken over 7 minutes off my olympic swim time over the past 5 years, as compared to only about 3 minutes off my run over the same time period. I attribute that to focussing on swimming specifically over a time period - and the best time to do that, for me as an individual, is in the winter and under a structured program (Tri Swimming ROCKS !).
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marie
Olympic Member
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Post by marie on Dec 16, 2010 9:14:32 GMT -5
I have to ditto Mark's last comment. Since Rob's classes started, my swimming technique has improved so dramatically that I have taken off about 5-7 seconds off my 100 t-time and am pumped for the implications for next tri season.
For me, I knew/know my form is horrible and couldn't possibly desconstruct it during the season. Only when speed considerations are nonexistent could I focus on making the improvements necessary to make me a faster swimmer.
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Post by kabaker13 on Dec 16, 2010 10:20:09 GMT -5
I thought it was odd given swimming is the weak event for a lot of people and the fact your form will slip quite a bit with no practice. I know that I personally wouldn't want to try to worry about building my swim fitness early in the season when I'd want to focus more on the whole.
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Post by christian on Dec 16, 2010 11:11:08 GMT -5
I think you have to look at the source of the article. I tried to have a civil discussion with EN on slowtwitch and they just kept referencing the fact they are coaches. The pride themselves on coaching "finishers" at a really high price. If you don't want to swim in the winter thats fine. I'll put 30 minutes on you over 2.4 rather than 20. You won't make up 30 minutes. The people who aren't swimming in the winter are probably the same people crying to the RD at Steelhead that the waves are too big when in all reality it was no worse than an ocean swim. To me, all pool time is lower body recovery with free cardio endurance.
Unfortunatly the people debating this topic aren't the ones with the swim issues.
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Post by MattCollister on Dec 16, 2010 11:46:39 GMT -5
I get the simple math argument. And I think you should train to your opportunities. And I think that there's a point of diminishing returns, where additional effort nets relatively smaller results.
For an individual, deciding what to focus on and where you can make gains, and how much gain you can make is hard. There's a lot of nuance. If you can ignore swimming for several months then pick it up again a few weeks before your season without sacrificing economy with that discipline, then good for you. But I don't think I can do that.
A person who rides a 40K at 18 mph has more opportunity to shave several minutes off their bike time than a person who swims 1500 meters at a 2-minute pace has opportunity to shave several minutes off their swim. But a triathlon is not just a swim or just a bike (or just a run). It's a run preceeded by a bike ride, preceeded by a swim. Your performance in the latter stages of the event are going to be affected by your performance in the earlier stages. Obviously the guy who drags his but out of the water, worn out from his swim, is in for a tougher bike and run than a guy who comes out of the swim still feeling good.
It took me about four years of Ironmans to realize that for me, the key to running across the finish line was to adopt an approach of "consistent mediocracy" with the three sports. I didn't have to be "great" at any one of the sports, but should be at least minimally competent in all of them. Competence means technique (in swimming, much more than in biking and running, I think). Technique means consistency. Consistency means I check in at the pool regularly.
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Post by MattCollister on Dec 16, 2010 11:54:56 GMT -5
I have to ditto Mark's last comment. Since Rob's classes started, my swimming technique has improved so dramatically that I have taken off about 5-7 seconds off my 100 t-time and am pumped for the implications for next tri season. Marie, I wonder how much your time in the pool is going to speed up your bike and run. |
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marie
Olympic Member
Posts: 100
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Post by marie on Dec 16, 2010 12:56:43 GMT -5
I wouldn't worry too much about my cycling, I get my time in the saddle.
My running, it is a concern, but since I had a stress fracture for a couple of months, it seemed pretty great timing to work on my swimming while letting my foot heal. About half the days I swim, I also run so I try not to leave it all in the pool, so to speak.
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Post by Papa Louie on Dec 17, 2010 10:44:31 GMT -5
I recently came across this article and posted it on some friends Facebook page and got some eye brows raised. It appeared I pricked some traditional triathlon athletes awareness so I thought I might share my two cents. I have been using my out season for the past 7 years to focus on my swimming technique, strength and confidence and I have to say I have improved in all these areas but my swim times haven't really come down like they have with my running or biking. I do plan on hitting the pool at least once a week but I will focus more on biking and running and when I'm not S.B.R. I will go outside the box (pool) and continue to build my aerobic capacity with snow shoeing, cross country skiing, mountain biking, stair climbing, ice skating, weight lifting and yoga just to name a few. Having fun doing these other activities won't bring my swim times down but I'll at least get a chance to enjoy other sports and when the pool goes back to long course in March I'll be ready to specifically train for my up coming triathlon race season.
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Post by Tim Edwards on Mar 31, 2011 14:32:58 GMT -5
Seems like he is forgetting about periodization. There is a time and place for all workouts and winter is not the time for triathletes to be doing high intensity VO2 max intervals or sprinting in the pool. He is saying that everyone is doing the same intensity and volume year round. Some people do and they get injured, burned out, or over trained.
I take at least a month off in the late fall and then start doing upper body strength training as well as getting back into the pool with aerobic effort and lots of stroke work. I save my intervals, power work, and sprints for closer to my A races. This is periodization.
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