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Post by jen on Apr 21, 2009 8:58:17 GMT -5
For those of you who do speedwork, do you run, jog, or walk between intervals? For instance, I'm doing 400s at 5k pace and in between does it matter what's done? I've read various things and just curious what others do since we've got some great runners to ask! Thanks!
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Post by ajbaucco on Apr 21, 2009 10:34:29 GMT -5
I definitely do not run. Jog or walk. What type of recovery are you doing between sets??
In the last few seasons, I have done many tracks sessions with collegiate runners and the recovery is always pretty much the same. When the interval is done, we immediately would break into a light jog/walk/stumble... sometimes for no more than a 10 seconds. After we'd grab a sip of water.. we'd start our recovery jog for 100yards, 200yards, 400, etc..
I have noticed that most people opt for a light jog between intervals, but it is okay to walk at first. I just never walk the whole recovery interval.
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Chris
Olympic Member
Posts: 121
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Post by Chris on Apr 21, 2009 11:08:21 GMT -5
It really depends on how long the interval is, and at what pace, and are you going for a pure speed work or trying to get some distance in too. The way I coach my runners is: if we are working on a pure speed day they walk their rest but its not a distance they walk, its time. One of my workouts that I do with 400's is 60-62s 400's with 3m rest, walking. That would be pure speed. the faster the 400's the more rest, and vice versa. On the other hand you can slow down those 400s to say 80, and do a jog recovery in between, which will build your speed but also throw in those much needed miles. this is essentially a fartlek run.
Hope this helps.
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Post by jen on Apr 21, 2009 11:28:26 GMT -5
Thanks guys. I was asking because I think I was trying to do too much-i.e. I'm doing about 6:40min/mile pace for 400 and then 8 min/mile pace in between for about 1:30. Perhaps it'd be more beneficial to pick up the interval pace and slow down/walk in between.
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Post by Matt Luck on Apr 21, 2009 17:07:06 GMT -5
The question comes down to what is your race pace for a 5k. It really does not matter what you are running your intervals at for the workout, i.e. if your best 5k is 22:00 than running them in 6:40 is too fast. You are opening yourself up for an injury or over training.
When running running intervals you have 4 levels to train. 1. Tempo with 10 sec rest between 400 up to 1:00 between mile 2. Interval pace with 1:00 jog between 3. Repetition pace with 2:00-3:00 jog between 4. Fast intervals with 3:00-4:00 jog between. These are run at race pace regardless of your p.r. at no point should you train faster than your racing.
Chris,
I do not mean to be rude but what are you training for? Running that fast should be reserved for 800m-1600m runners that are running 2:00 for a half or 4:00-4:08 for a mile or a world record 5k.
One of the biggest problems runners make is trusting there current ability. There is no reason to train that fast.
When I have my high school kids run that fast, the number they do is very limited and done for a reason. Otherwise, all of our training is about getting stronger by running intervals at different speeds and distances. Most triathletes would benefit from doing only tempo runs and long easy runs. Getting on the track makes us feel faster. The reality is it will do us very little benefit. I can expound upon this on a separate message if I need. Speed comes with strength and the continual application of force over a period of time. Remember, an injured runner is no good to the team.
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Post by Aussie Rob on Apr 21, 2009 20:06:52 GMT -5
Running is so confusing to me sometimes.
So even if you train only as fast as your current race pace, improvements in speed will occur naturally even if you don't try and train faster to race faster?
I'm giving the run more emphasis this year over last by actually running more than twice a week. Getting 4 runs in a week (tempo, hills, long, brick run at HIM race pace) and very slowly building my mileage (ill be damned if im going to hurt myself this year!).
My 5k PR is 19:07, set last december at the reindeer run when i hadn't been really training, and had gained about 10-12lbs after IM. I seem to be running my 6-10 mile runs around 7:00-7:15 min/miles kinda naturally, which was faster than i expected to feel comfortable at this early. Long runs (currently only 10 miles) are around 7:30-7:45 min/miles and they feel quite easy. Tempo runs hover around 5:50-6:10 min/miles, although i haven't done many of those this early.
So my question is, am i training optimally? Can i train smarter and get faster? I want to run a 1:30 half off the bike, and a 3:30 at IMKY. Would love to run 0:38 in an oly too.
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Post by Matt Luck on Apr 21, 2009 21:47:01 GMT -5
Rob,
I will get into the answer tomorrow. I will try to keep it short but it will take time to cover.
think of it this way, the greatest mistake runners make is their intervals are to fast and the runs are to slow.
Your training pace is pretty good but your tempo is way to fast.
Your tempo should be slower than your race pace a 19:07 is about 6:12 per mile. Your tempo run should be around 6:40 per mile.
Beyond this much information will require more time and space. I will try to clarify alot over the next several days.
Feel free to email me matt.luck@weschools.org
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Chris
Olympic Member
Posts: 121
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Post by Chris on Apr 22, 2009 5:06:14 GMT -5
Matt, FYI, I coach high school and use to coach college track, I do know a little about running. That workout is what I do to make sure I keep my turnover up. When I was in college, I was one of the nations fastest D3 400m runners, so when it comes to speed i do know what im talking about. And from what I have seen while coaching and competing, tempo runs only help you build endurance and pace over longer runs. It almost never helps with speed. Oh, and btw, that workout I do is not fast, I use to do the same thing in 55s.
Since you live on the east side, we might have to meet up for a beer and discuss more running
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Post by philjolliff on Apr 22, 2009 7:59:35 GMT -5
Matt, You should read the Runner's World book "Run Less Run Faster." They have a very different approach to training for long distance running and a lot of research to back it up. I think running fast has its benefits and feel there is definitely a good argument to be made that you should run much faster than race pace during your speed workouts and when I ran in college that was definitely the case for our long distance runners. That said, there are many different schools of thought and not one training plan will work perfectly for all runners, there are good merits to many different running training programs.
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Post by Matt Luck on Apr 22, 2009 8:25:20 GMT -5
Chris,
Your point is exactly right for you but most triathletes will not benefit from this workout. Tempo runs properly run are perfect for triathletes.
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Post by Matt Luck on Apr 22, 2009 9:25:59 GMT -5
Phil,
Thanks for the advice but I think I will stick to my experience as a coach, athlete and avid reader.
Try Jack Daniles Distance Running formula, I think if you read this book you will get where I am coming from. Please remember that the people you are providing advice for are usually in the 30's-40's and will not see the benefit from the speedwork you are proposing they should do.
and before I get ripped that I do not know my stuff, this is my resume
1x in cross 25:31 at the 1988 national meet 31st 2x in track All American 5th in the Steeple in 1989 p.r. of 9:08 in the steeple, 15:02 in the 5k and 31:50 in the 10k 1:12 half marathon
I have also coached several state qualifiers at the high school level.
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Post by philjolliff on Apr 22, 2009 10:19:11 GMT -5
I wouldn't even consider ripping anyone on this forum and wasn't intending to. I was just presenting an alternative viewpoint, sharing a book/training plan that I enjoyed and had some success with. I respect your opinions very much, and thought you would appreciate my opinion; if you took it as an attack on your experience/reputation, it certainly wasn't meant as one and I apologize. I'll definitely give the book you suggested a read.
If one way of training worked perfectly for every person, we'd all be doing it. Different coaches have different ways of training their triathletes and runners. We have a very wide variety of ages and ability levels in this club.
Very impressive times, we certainly have a lot of stellar athletes in this club.
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Post by allanjel on Apr 22, 2009 11:34:17 GMT -5
I tend to agree with a lot of what Matt says about the Jack Daniel's book. It is great for runners, especially those with a non-exercise science backgrounds. Not all runner's are exercise physiologists and understand RER, lactate threshold, MHR and THR, but his book does give fairly good estimates of how hard one should run for certain runs. It Keeps It Simple Stupid (KISS). Speed work is to activate your fast twitch fibers (type IIA and typeIIB), and help move that mental wall. When doing intervals/speedwork it is imperative to bring your heart rate back down to it's recovery zone (probably below 120bpm). Issues arise when runners cannot recover and hit the intensity on the latter speedwork, putting them in no-mans land somewhere between lactate threshold and VO2max. As an experimenet when I trained for the Philadelphia Marathon I used his calculator to see how accurate it was. I managed to run dead on at all race distances except the marathon, which I feel was due to a miscalculation in my training plan. www.runworks.com/calculator.htmlOf course, I have also learned that EVERYONE is different and responds to training differently, so YOU must discover what works for YOU...and if it doesn't, I am a firm believer in trying something new. Just because one person is successful utilizing one method does not mean another will be.
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Post by Matt Luck on Apr 22, 2009 11:48:50 GMT -5
Phil,
the key point is that when people are preparing there training they have a tendency to do intervals to fast.
It makes absolutely no sense to train at 75 sec/400 or a 5:00 mile, when they can only race a 7:30 pace for a 5k.
Those are the points I am trying to make. If you want to be fast you must train fast but fast has to kept in perspective to what your abilities are background afford. That has been my point all along.
If you read some of my previous posts, they center around that most people say they are doing this run or that run and really do not have a grasp of what pace they should be training.
No offense taken, I just felt that you may have understood where I was coming from.
Take care.
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Post by philjolliff on Apr 22, 2009 12:14:44 GMT -5
I completely agree with you, I think we just misunderstood each other.
Many of the online running calculators like posted above and many running books are very useful in calculating training paces, some are a little more aggressive than others, but for the most part they provide you with good guidelines.
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Post by Matt Luck on Apr 22, 2009 12:34:11 GMT -5
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Post by kenb321 on Apr 23, 2009 9:58:47 GMT -5
this thread is awesome! I thought it was going to come to blows for awhile, but it has calmed down. Matt, this is a great website. My question is how the vdot translates to after swimming and biking for 2 - 2.5 hours, what should goals be adjusted to. I will train using these speeds, but I know I won't maintain these paces in a tri. also, if i do the 400 at an interval pace of 1:42, what should the rest period be. Get the hr down, a certain amount of time?
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Post by Matt Luck on Apr 24, 2009 6:07:43 GMT -5
Ken,
The vdot is a measure of max vo2, which technically does not change regardless of performance length. The vdot is a calculation used to daniels to assign a number to specific training times. Jack Daniels has a spread sheet in his book which says that a 5k run a x time is equal to a 10k at x and a half marathon and a marathon. If you plug in you 5k p.r. you will notice down the left side equivalent times down the left side. This should be around your p.r. for those other races.
When I am racing, I worry very little about that number but rather I focus on competing an staying within the heart zones appropriate for the distance you are running. The key is we need to remember that this is an endurance event and therefore should be raced as such. However, when you run training, train as if you are a runner.
Depending on what type of interval that 1:42 is
Tempo, I go with 10-15 secs after each quarter. You will know if you are running the right pace because of the limited rest.
If I am at R-pace then I go with 2-3 min jogs
I am at I-pace then I go with a 1 min jog.
the Heart Rate should not be an issue if you were honest with the time you entered, which should be a stand alone 5k-10k time.
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Post by elizabeth on Apr 24, 2009 14:48:34 GMT -5
Ken,
Not sure where I heard it but I know it was accurate for me that your tri run should be about 10-15% slower than what you could run in that distance in a road race. Not sure if that applies up to Ironman level but was definitely accurate for me at sprint and olympic level.
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Post by Brian Luther on Apr 24, 2009 16:50:04 GMT -5
Since we have some, "Exercise Physiologists", and a great caliber of awesome, swimmer's, cyclist's, and runner's.......... Maybe we could gather a general, training log/charts, to use as reference in our own training goals.....
It is now time to add a "sub-category" to the "Training Q & A" forum...... Say we could have a, pace chart, for each sport, and then a pace chart for tri specific distances, i.e. sprints, olys, him, im......
Just a thought, since most of us look for insight from this forum and some general references could be quite useful when we train on our own.... We, as athletes, parents, students, full time working folk, may not have the, time or money, for a personal trainer, and would find this a great tool in this forum from the Cleveland Triathlon Club.....
Maybe during the Spring Picnic, this could be addressed or discussed further.....
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Post by mgorris on Apr 26, 2009 13:30:28 GMT -5
Thought I would chime in and offer some advice. For starters, Matt Luck has always provided tons of great info as it pertains to running. If you follow his advice, you will improve. My post pertains to Matt's post regarding VDOT. I would caution anyone using the Daniels table to make sure they are using a RECENT pr from a CERTIFIED, record eligible course. Those of you who know me have heard this mantra a thousand times. Why is it so important, you may ask? Simple, most courses are not certified and a non-certified course is a short course. Don't believe me, then just ask Jim Wilhelm, one of the top grand-master runners in NE Ohio who BTW also certifies most of the courses in the area. Jim has certified a number of the courses from the Subway Ohio Challenge Series and at a party last summer explained to me the process of course certification. It was an eye opening experience. He told me that he has yet to certify a course that was not short. Some 5k's he has certified were less than 3 miles prior to certification! You should also use a record eligible course when calculating training paces because even if a course is certified, if it is one way with net elevation loss you are going to run faster than otherwise would. So let us use the Daniels tables Matt has been kind enough to share. Let's say 'runner A' ran a recent 5k on a non certified course and ran at a 7' mile pace For arguments sake, let's assume the course was 3 miles, not 3.1. 'Runner A' would plug 21:00 into the table and come up with a VDOT value of 47. However, the real time should be 21:42 or a VDOT of 45. If 'Runner A' used this value to set up a training program, he or she would be training at the wrong paces. And as noted in bold letters at the top of the Daniels table: IMPORTANT: If you train at a VDOT value you have not yet achieved, you are likely to get injured. It's a bad idea and here is why. Does this mean you should only race certified courses? Absolutely not, however, just make sure you use a recent PR from a certified course for training paces. Here is a link you all can use to check to see what courses are certified. www.usatf.org/events/courses/search/Good luck and happy training
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Post by Matt Luck on Apr 26, 2009 15:24:37 GMT -5
this is so true.
The Daniels formula I speak of requires patience which is why I tell my kids and their parents several things to keep in mind.
1. An injured runner does you know good.
2. By following our program, you will see the benefits in a time period of 9-18 month. Case in point: My best distance runner has been following this program for over two and a half years, always getting better but never that significant drop until this cross country season and track. He dropped one minute in cross over a 5k and so far has dropped 4 secs in his 800. Yesterday, he ran 1:56 in the 800. His progress has always been incremental and measurable but his year he has blossomed, because he does what we asked and we maintained him on a schedule that allowed his body to adjust to the stressors that we placed on him.
Stay within the times and you will see progress.
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julia
Sprint Member
Posts: 44
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Post by julia on Apr 27, 2009 14:52:33 GMT -5
On the VDOT Calculator, what is the difference between Interval Pace and Repetition Pace?
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Post by mgorris on Apr 28, 2009 5:54:59 GMT -5
Here you go, straight from the horse's mouth:
I Pace. The next important training velocity is the one that stresses and improves V02max V02max-interval (I) velocity. The intensity here should be equal to vVO2max- I believe most people should shoot for 98% - 100% of HRmax, rather than always demanding a 100% value, if using heart-rate as a guide. This is suggested because if maximum heart rate coincides with a pace of 6:00 per mile, for example, then certainly 5:50 or any pace faster than 6-minute pace will also elicit maximum heart rate, but is too fast for the purpose of the training session -- optimum result with the least possible stress. No single run, which makes up a series of Intervals, should exceed 5-minutes.
Interval (I) training is demanding, but by no means is it all-out running. In the case of I pace, the harm of going too fast is that no better results are obtained and the excessive pace will probably leave you over stressed for the next quality-training session.
R Pace. Repetition (R) velocity is faster than I pace, at the very least, but, unlike I and T, is not based on V02max. Rather, R pace is to a great extent, based the race for which you are training; it is more designed for good mechanics at a pretty firm pace. A runner, in training for a I OK, with a vVO2max of 300 meters per minutes will have the same threshold velocity and V02max (I) velocity as any other runner whose vVO2max is also 300, but who may be training for a 1500-meter race. This is because T and I paces are related to the same vVO2max value, and any runners with a 300 vVO2max would have identical training speeds for I and T training. On the other hand, R pace would differ for the two runners cited above, because one is running for a faster race than is the other, and needs good economy and speed for that faster pace. Keep in mind that the purpose of Rep-pace training is to improve economy and speed; it is not to benefit V02max or lactate threshold. It is important to always have set in your mind what every workout is designed to do for you, even if that benefit is pure relaxation.
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Post by jen on May 5, 2009 22:02:48 GMT -5
So what do you train at if you put in two recent races of varying distances and get different VDOT values? For example with a recent 5K I got a 50 but with a recent 10 miler a 47...just curious.
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Post by elizabeth on May 6, 2009 10:09:45 GMT -5
The actual daniels calculation is a bit more complicated and takes into account 4 recent races plus your times for 400 and 800 meters.
what it says is you look up your vdot for your best race, if your 2nd highest vdot is not within 2.0 of that you subtract 2.0 from your highest. If it is within two you use that highest vdot (a)
you look up vdot for your 800 (b) and 400 (c) times and you average the vdots for that first value (a) (minus 2 if your races are different) and the two short distance vdots (b&c) to get your current training vdot.
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Post by jen on May 6, 2009 18:25:15 GMT -5
Thanks Elizabeth!
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