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Post by watchman on Jan 8, 2008 15:15:26 GMT -5
Jodi Angie Brandon and M. Gorris
Jodi I like the run every day but shorter distance I have never tried that. Frequency over distance . When you say swimmimg is 4000 yards over what time frame is that?
Angie My weakest part is running to. I like the 4th week variation. It is the same in body building.
M. Gorris My ankle was broken 14 months ago. It is still sore but I noticed that when I run more often it seems to hurt less. Your 2 cents is very helpful. I think you are right with the adding miles. I know the ankle is still weak. The bike advice is good also.
Brandon I noticed you are the only one with a day of complete rest on Friday.I have made Sunday that day. Thanks for the training log info.
Mike
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Post by Brandon on Jan 8, 2008 17:13:09 GMT -5
I choose to take my rest day on Friday because Saturday and Sunday's workouts are the toughest and most important. Monday and Tuesday are pretty easy days for me also. I suppose another option is to take the rest day after the weekend workouts, which I often did until I found that an easy swim seemed to help my recovery.
That is my training plan in a perfect world. I modify it as life and my bodies reaction to the workouts dictates.
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Post by jodi on Jan 8, 2008 17:25:31 GMT -5
Mike- Depending on the day, it takes anywhere from 1:15 to 1:25 to do 4000. The practice is 1:30 so sometimes we do extra. Monday is usually the fastest because it is distance/pulling. Wednesday is slowest because it focuses on strokes other than freestyle (not totally, but a lot of IM and stuff like that), and Fridays are speedwork. Fridays sometimes take long because we do a lot of 50's with decent rest. Jodi
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Post by watchman on Jan 8, 2008 18:59:53 GMT -5
Jodi
when you say " we " do...
is it a class? or just others who do tri"s?
is it a CTC group?
mike
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Post by jodi on Jan 8, 2008 19:54:45 GMT -5
Sorry! I swim with the CSU masters group. MWF 6am at the Cleveland State pool (it's beautiful)
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Post by Angie on Jan 8, 2008 21:06:41 GMT -5
Mike- There are masters swim groups all over the city. I swim with the lakewood masters.. mostly in the evening. I have attended the CSU group a few times.. it is very nice . Check out the website for the times/ days of all groups. Open up the pools and location tab to get the info. www.ohiomasters.com
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Post by watchman on Jan 9, 2008 8:55:38 GMT -5
Great I just found out about the Ohio masters before New Years. I was trying to decide between the Medina group and the Lakewood group. I was about to ask if anyone knew about this. Just talking to some of the people has helped. I was doing it all wrong. Just grinding out laps with horrible form. I was swimming at the Gunning rec center and saw an older guy swimming so smooth and fast that I asked if he did triathlons. He said no but told me about this Ohio Masters. I always do my swimming during the day so now I have to fit it in in the evenings.
Jodie I assume CSU is during the day since you said you run after or do you run at night?
Angie what days are you at Lakewood? I can only be there Mondays, Thursdays and Saturdays
I am going to check that out and Medina. I need coaching realy bad. How is the coach at Lakewood?
mike
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Post by Angie on Jan 9, 2008 9:35:51 GMT -5
Mike- I am at lakewood on mondays and saturdays.. most of the time. The coach on those days is Bob... he is great and will be happy to give you advice if you ask for it. He is very interactive with the athletes.... However, do not expect alot of one on one coaching with masters... they will give you tips on stroke etc but this is not a coaching session... it is a workout. I would recommend you come and check it out but you might need to hire a coach seperately if you want more attention.
On monday I swim in lane 8 with joanne (she is another triathlete) and on sat I swim in lane 3. On thursday and sunday the coach is Jim and he will give joanne and I longer swim sets (500s) when we come on those days. When you come to practice, talk to the coach and he will put you in a lane --- if that lane is too fast or too slow then he will move you.
CSU swim is at 6AM.
ANGIE
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Post by watchman on Jan 15, 2008 16:32:56 GMT -5
Jodi
I have been trying the running every day routine Mon bike then run 5 miles intervals Tues swim then run 3 miles fast Wed. bike then run 5 miles intervals Thurs. Swim then run 3 miles fast Fri. bike then run 5 miles easy Sat swim then run 7-8 miles easy
so far I have felt better and my ankle hurts less. I am already seeing improvement in speed
mike
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Post by Nathan on Jan 16, 2008 18:41:52 GMT -5
CTC Injury Police reporting ...
I would never encourage anyone to run 7 days a week (regardless of distance). I have been running as part of an organized group or solo for 27 years and counting and have been injured all of once. February 2005 after having moved to Cleveland, Ohio I slipped off an icy curb and broke my left big toe.
That's it. No ITB problems. No plantar fas ... I don't even know how to spell it. I would encourage anyone who is taking said advise of running 7 days a week, to ask the person offering up that advise to please list their overuse injuries from 2006 and 2007. Full disclosure. Maybe I am mistaken, but last I heard, they had a few.
CTC Injury Police signing off.
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Post by jodi on Jan 17, 2008 6:00:44 GMT -5
Nathan-
You can always feel free use my name if you are asking me something.
My overuse injuries: Runner's knee from running a half marathon with little to no run training in 2006 ITB for about a week when running 3-4 times per week the same year. I think it was really due to wearing one of those knee bands from the runner's knee. Broke my kneecap from tripping on the sidewalk in 2007
Since I have been running consistently I have been injury free, but it hasn't been very long, so I can't say much about it. I take days off when I can't make it out (it will become more common in the coming months), and I don't do any speedwork and weekly mileage is usually around 25 miles.
Just saying what I have been doing that has helped with my rehab. I am not an expert.
Jodi
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Post by watchman on Jan 17, 2008 13:18:15 GMT -5
From the last two posts I would like some others to give there thoughts on this. Is running every day good or bad? Any more insight would be great.
I have noticed less pain in ankle and shin splints while running more often. The pain seems worse after a day off.
Maybe this is temporary. any additions insight is welcome.
Mike
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Post by Nathan on Jan 17, 2008 15:58:00 GMT -5
Jodi,
Previous comment was made in reference to your 7 day-a-week running program, and directed in part to you. But it was also directed to others that follow the same routine and I was hoping to elicit responses from them as well. We have had so many threads about overuse injuries and the "injury police" that I find it difficult to keep my opinion to myself when people are soliciting training suggestions and are getting "run every day" testimonials.
But, of course, opinions are like ... everyone has one.
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Post by timritt on Jan 17, 2008 16:56:59 GMT -5
Nathan,
Being down by the worlds largest topless beach I would have guessed that you would be running twice a day.
tr
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Post by watchman on Jan 17, 2008 17:17:05 GMT -5
Nathan and Jodi what you have both said is good and there is a wide range of experience that form opinions.
Hey I would have never thought you should not wear baseball cleats playing football until I snapped my ankle because baseball cleats do not give. Now I will warn everyone I know.
I just want to get as much insight as possible. I think I will end up somewhere in between. instead of 3 times per week at 5 miles each I will probably end up with 5 times per week varying from 3 miles fast to 7 to 10 miles on a long day and different distances and times in between. It has helped to increase the frequency of my running.
I hope others add their thoughts also.
mike
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Post by watchman on Jan 17, 2008 17:30:39 GMT -5
one more question
nathan what is overuse injuries? give me an example. How long do you have to run on an every day schedule for it to be an issue?
anyone of the injury police can answer.
Jodi how often do you miss? running 7 days per week for how many weeks in a row?
mike
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Post by Nathan on Jan 17, 2008 18:46:44 GMT -5
Asking a lawyer to define / describe overuse injuries? I can't even spell them. ITB syndrome and plantar fascititis seem to be two of the big ones that people get. All I know is that the first is located somewhere in the knee area and the other is in the foot.
How often do you have to run to get them? Who knows? It varies by person. Good rule of thumb for us dumbies is (1) don't run every day (take one or two days off each week from running to recover) and (2) don't increase your miles each week too fast (i.e., if you are running 10 miles in week one, you don't want to run 50 miles a week in week two).
Medical folks, fitness trainers and coaches should chime in. All I am doing is talking from personal experiences and those of my friends who have slipped up on both of the above rules of thumb.
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Post by Jack Carney on Jan 17, 2008 23:08:50 GMT -5
I think any workout schedule needs to have rest and variety as your body needs to recover. I know people who ran every day for years and all at once they were incapacitated or unable to run anymore at all. That is one of the things I love about triathlon you can workout every day if you want and the cross training not only prevents overuse injuries it seems to prevent them for me. A swim the day after a long run is very therapeutic. I believe in at least one day off a week and I also use Friday as the weekends are usually the longest and most intense workouts for me.
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Post by m gorris on Jan 18, 2008 8:39:27 GMT -5
Nathan,
Sometimes what is put into print does not necessarily coincide with the authors intentions.
Food for thought: Re-read Jodi's post. I don't think she is advocating running 7x's a week/365 days a year. She said that now [probably winter base for her I am guessing] she runs every day, 30-45 minutes and the key word...EASY. Reading further, she stated that later in the year she would drop one or two runs per week while increasing the length of her run distance.
While one should not run everyday, one can certainly inject periods of everyday running here and there. At the present time, during my run focus weeks, I am running 6x's a week, that's 2-3x's more than I would come Spring. The key is that now I am trying to get in as many miles as possible, with the key being at a very comfortable EZ pace. The only way to do that is to run with a higher frequency.
I know we are comparing apples and oranges here, but look at your average collegiate CC runner. These guys and gals are putting in 100+ mile weeks during the season, running everyday, sometimes twice a day. Of course, they do not do this all year, but at certain periods during the year, they most certainly do.
To run everyday you should probably have a good foundation of running, be free of injury, run at a comfortable pace with no speed work, try to run on softer surfaces [towpath etc] and be near your ideal weight. If you want to get in a lot of miles you might find yourself running everyday, if not for just a few months
Be safe out there in the sun!
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Post by TimAckley on Jan 18, 2008 9:08:33 GMT -5
I saw this yesterday and thought I would post it here......
Tips from the Elites: Julie Ertel (January 15, 2008 )
ITU athletes are some of the finest tuned specimens in the world. They work and train incredibly hard to keep themselves in top shape to compete in World Championships and on the BG Triathlon World Cup Series. We asked them to share their best training tips for age-group triathletes. Check back soon for regular training tips from the top ITU competitors.
“A rest day is very important. I know a lot of age-groupers who just want to train seven days a week. But I’m really adamant about taking at least one rest day, sometimes two, per week, just to let my body recover. I think the training sticks better that way.” - Julie Ertel
and after listening to M Gorris advice on running, I would agree with him and say that the quality of the workout is more important, rather than quantity... I think three to four really good runs a week is better for me than 5 or more a week... My back could not handle 5 or more....
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Post by sarajean on Jan 18, 2008 12:35:30 GMT -5
nathan what is overuse injuries? give me an example. How long do you have to run on an every day schedule for it to be an issue? anyone of the injury police can answer. I'm not a member of the "injury police," but I need to chime in here. Running every day is not the only way to get an overuse injury. Last year, I was running three times a week, increased my mileage more than 10% per week, and ended up losing two weeks of training due to plantar fasciitis.
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Post by jetlink on Jan 18, 2008 13:41:52 GMT -5
Hey Mike,
Good discussions here on different plans. I know of one sure and tried method for avoiding injury but it is very very difficult to follow and obey......I'll post it anyhow. "Listen to your body" IMO - this is the best way to avoid injuries. Now, it is also very wise (I think) to listen and follow those basic rules that everyone talks/writes about - things like increasing distance no more than 10% per week - Long run distance increase no more than 10% - limited speedwork during base-phase......etc.
If you can accurately listen to your body and interpret its signals than you'll be ok. I definately would not put general limitations on myself but would rather experiment and see what works best - what yields the best results.......that may be running everyday - if the body says its "ok". What it really comes down to is to first answer one very basic question - that is "what am I hoping to accomplish during this traininig month" and then even more specific - "what am I hoping to accomplish during this training event". If you can answer those questions and do the work than let the body determine where to go from there.
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Post by jodi on Jan 18, 2008 18:03:13 GMT -5
Thanks for actually reading my post! Yes, this is just for building up my miles during rehab of my knee. I find it much less dangerous for me to build mileage through frequency rather than duration. I am doing NO speedwork. It is all slow, short runs. Doing that I am able to very slowly build up my mileage without the stress of the constant 5-6-7 mile runs. When the spring hits it will end up with 5 days per week.
I don't have a big feeling either way on rest days. I know that I personally don't like them, but take them when life intervenes or I feel excessively fatigued. For the next 7 weeks I will be working one 30 hour shift per week, so that will be my built in rest day, I guess.
Jodi
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Post by Nathan on Jan 18, 2008 18:28:06 GMT -5
M: Swim and run T: Bike and run W: Swim and run R: Bike and run F: Swim and run S: Bike and long run S: Long bike and run
I miss a day here and there, and later in the year I'll drop one or two per week and increase the distance per run. I really think that frequency is safer on the joints than people who run 2 times per week, with one of them 8+ miles.
I did read the above post. Last I checked, each day of the above week has a run in it. Which equals 7 days a week. Missing a day here and there does not indicate intent to take a rest day. Later in the year dropping to 5 or 6 days - now we're getting into semantics. We are talking about current training schedules - running 7 days a week on a consistent basis. The last comment - saying that frequency is safer (while also listing out a 7 day a week run program) than running only twice a week with an 8 mile run - I have no clue where that comparison comes from. Would someone please explain that one to me? I would rather run twice a week 52 weeks a year than run 7 days a week for even a 3 month period.
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Post by Brian Luther on Jan 18, 2008 20:15:10 GMT -5
Funny how this thread was started................ The question on how to get better on the 5k run with faster times and recovering from an injury...... Now weeeeeeeeeeee have the "CTC Injury Police" tracking every letter we type, and providing, sound medical insight................ Maybe we should start a "donation fund" for the CTC Injury Police........ All this wonderful advice without asking for a dime.... January is half over and Winter Conditioning is in full swing.... Now is the time to focus on the upcoming season and set those goals for 08. Keep up all the hard work people, and may it be an injury free season for all and that we are blessed with such a great group of athletes in this club! Brian
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Post by watchman on Jan 21, 2008 10:02:06 GMT -5
another question to gain speed
Does longer and longer runs add to speed in shorter distances?
or just more speed work and intervals at shorter distances?
I want to get faster for the sprint. My goal is 6 minute mile pace.
On the days I do long runs. how long should I shoot for?
I am at about 7 miles. Should I go longer and longer? does that help you get faster at the shorter distance? I have been doing some days intervals and some tempo and one long.
I am just wanting to not waste time. I have no interest in the longer events right now. I just want to be really fast at the shorter ones.
mike
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Post by Nathan on Jan 21, 2008 11:29:21 GMT -5
Short response from the non-medical and non-coach participant on this thread - longer and longer runs don't make me a faster runner in the short distances. All it does is for me is build endurance for the long haul.
How do I get faster for the 5K and 10K distances? I do 1 mile and 2 mile repeats. When I am screwing around with these distances and limiting my weekly long runs, I get much faster. When I am focused on long distance training (as I am right now), I don't do any repeats and, inevitably, I get slower in the short distances.
Tim - why run on the topless beaches when you can sit down and admire the scenery all day. I find it difficult to get all my work-outs in when all I want to do on the weekend is hang out on the beach.
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Post by TimAckley on Jan 21, 2008 13:30:31 GMT -5
I am no where near a running expert, but have noticed huge improvements in short distance racing from training for Long Course racing...
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Post by jeff jls on Jan 21, 2008 13:50:05 GMT -5
Increasing speed definitely should include specific speedwork and intervals to train your legs and body to move at the faster pace. One important aspect of interval training, however, is how hard you are working. For a while I have been utilizing a return of my heart rate to 120bpm within 1:30 of finishing an interval or a tempo run. This will let you know if you are working too hard or if you are working at a positive effort. If your heart rate is not returning to 120 withing the 1:30 time, you are likely working too hard and overstressing anaerobically which is not training your aerobic system to work at its higher levels...the recovery lets you know you are within the parametors required for the best results. Recently, I found an article about the methods of Mark Allen which shows that there is a great reason to maintain a long run while trying to increase speed. The link is below. www.duathlon.com/articles/1460good luck, Jeff
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Post by watchman on Jan 22, 2008 12:33:11 GMT -5
I have to take a moment and thank all you guys and gals.
Since I started asking these questions 3 weeks ago I have been doing the speed intervals , tempo runs and the long runs along with a couple of recovery runs. Basically 5 days per week with two days rest.
I feel like superman. I have never had such gain in speed andd less pain. All I did before was plod 5 miles 3 times per week.
this is great
Also I mailed in my membership to join the CTC.
I cannot wait for the season to start.
thanks Mike
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