Question for the running experts

[watchman]

I want to go from a 5k time of 24 minutes to 18-19 minutes.

Last year I was around 19. I broke my ankle and lost speed.

I have never been into the technical side of running.

I see the term base running. What is that?

For me to improve time on a 5k, exactly what would be a good routine? As in distance, speed, amount of days per week?

I basically run 3 times per week at 5 miles each.

I am just curious of some thought by the running experts on this site.

I have gotten alot of insight on the bike and swimming so I thought I would ask about running.

I only intend to do sprint triathlons. I can put in 90 minutes per day 6 days per week. currently I am swimming 3 times per week bike twice and running 3 times.

Mike

[Brian Luther]

Mike,

Size and weight are two big factors in running. The less weight, the faster you get. Most runners who are fast, have a small body frame and are on the lower end of the weight scale.

Getting faster will come with, stretching before and after workouts, speed training, and strength training, "given", you already have a good to excellent running form. Your injury will play a factor as well, and you should make sure the foot/ankle has healed properly.

With all that in your favor, you can start with running 1/4, 1/2, and 1 mile, intervals on the track and developing an excellent breathing technique to compliment the faster pace. Breathing in through the nose, and exhaling out the mouth. In dealing with intervals, slowly work into doing more laps as you become stronger.

First session, work in two 1/4 mile intervals running at a pace faster than your five mile jog, with a light jog in between to recover on your breathing and keeping up your heart rate. Then build on more laps up to a mile by running these speed intervals. You are increasing your heart rate on these intervals, and developing the faster heart rate, will compliment your increased speed.

This gives you a "general idea" on how to start on increasing your speed and endurance. This does not happen "over night" and takes a lot of training. Its always easier to have a running partner while attempting this for the first time, "The Buddy System", in case you get hurt or pull muscles.

Brian

p.s. if you have more questions feel free to call me, 1-440-313-7581. This is only a general overview on how to start increasing speed for shorter distances..............

[watchman]

two more questions

How many days per week should this be done?

and should it be every time or vary with a longer or shorter at a slower pace?

I am 5' 10" 170

I have done mostly weights the last 5 years with 3 mile runs 2 or 3 times per week.

also


I have a heart monitor.

What should the heart rate be during the intervals ?
and recovery?

mike

[traciezamiska]

Hey Mike:

There are some great raining plans online at runnersworld.com (free) and a couple of books that you might want to check out:

Runner's World Guide To Cross-training by Matt Fitzgerald books.google.com/books?id=FM3bY-ajbN8C&dq=Matt+Fitzgerald&hl=en&prev=http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=umn&pwst=1&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=Matt+Fitzgerald&spell=1&oi=print&ct=result&cd=2&cad=author-navigational

Triathlete Magazine's Complete Triathlon Book by Matt Fitzgerald
books.google.com/books?id=U_aAGwAACAAJ&dq=Matt+Fitzgerald&ei=eNp7R9meKYvsiQGH7uC9Cg&ie=ISO-8859-1

I also just posted three separate posts on my blog about how to quickly calculate your HR and target HR zones that you can use as a base to follow.

traciestriadventures.blogspot.com/2007/12/section-one-determine-your-target-heart.html
traciestriadventures.blogspot.com/2007/12/section-two-wtf-why-do-i-need-to-know.html
traciestriadventures.blogspot.com/2007/12/section-three-now-to-finally-answer.html


Good luck!

[BrianStern]

Mike
I would suggest that you first determine when you want to run your fastest 5k time.
If it is a road race the training will differ from that of a sprint Tri. If you want to focus on a road race then start by running easy longer to med effort runs in the off season (base). Then after 4 weeks, start adding a run that would include harder efforts during the run. I would suggest start with hill runs or repeats thrown in to increase anaerobic capasity. You could also use 1-2 minute pick ups at near race pace effort. Remember to get a good warm up in before any hard efforts (10-20 minutes). You should feel tired but not totally wasted. Continue the run at an easy pace to finish. Work on this 1-2 times a week before attempting any speed work (2-3 weeks), allowing your body to adapt to the new stress. Then I would suggest hitting the track or a trail that you measured for 1/4 mi and 1/2 mi
sections. I would start with 1-2 half repeats at faster then race pace with an equal amount of recovery (jog or totally slow walk). Then throw in 2-4 quarters with equal time recovery. Make certain to jog a warm up and warm down. Your week based on three runs
should include one long 5-7mi, one tempo (med pace) 3-5 mi run, and one speed effort.

Brian Stern

[keaveny]

brianstern said:

Mike
I would suggest that you first determine when you want to run your fastest 5k time.
If it is a road race the training will differ from that of a sprint Tri. If you want to focus on a road race then start by running easy longer to med effort runs in the off season (base). Then after 4 weeks, start adding a run that would include harder efforts during the run. I would suggest start with hill runs or repeats thrown in to increase anaerobic capasity. You could also use 1-2 minute pick ups at near race pace effort. Remember to get a good warm up in before any hard efforts (10-20 minutes). You should feel tired but not totally wasted. Continue the run at an easy pace to finish. Work on this 1-2 times a week before attempting any speed work (2-3 weeks), allowing your body to adapt to the new stress. Then I would suggest hitting the track or a trail that you measured for 1/4 mi and 1/2 mi
sections. I would start with 1-2 half repeats at faster then race pace with an equal amount of recovery (jog or totally slow walk). Then throw in 2-4 quarters with equal time recovery. Make certain to jog a warm up and warm down. Your week based on three runs
should include one long 5-7mi, one tempo (med pace) 3-5 mi run, and one speed effort.

Brian Stern

I am going to jump into this thread. Newbie that I am I get lost in some of the nomenclature. What is a "repeat?" And I can figure out what a "hill" is, but what does the workout consist of? Running up a hill, walking down, and repeating?

[keaveny]

windrunner86 said:

Mike,

Size and weight are two big factors in running. The less weight, the faster you get. Most runners who are fast, have a small body frame and are on the lower end of the weight scale.

So at 6' and 195 you are saying I am screwed? Thanks for that pick-me-up.

[Aussie Rob]

Im 5' 10" and 190.

I think they're telling us to lose some weight...bastards!

[watchman]

Brian

it is for a sprint tri.

what do you mean by " tempo run"

how does that differ from the long run.

I know it is a stupid question but I want to be sure.

also to everyone who has written

thanks it is all helpful

do any of you include leg workouts?

I like to do squats, dead lifts, leg curls, leg presses and calf raises

does that help or hurt my goal of getting faster ?

mike

[Angie]

Here is a nice glossary of running terms that are used by many of us.

Long run: Long runs are performed at any pace between an easy jog and marathon race pace (60 to 85 percent VO2 max). For sprint triathlon, the long runs do not need to be more than 1 hr but could go up to 1.5 hours if you are able.

Fartlek This is a Swedish word meaning ‘speed play’. Fartlek is traditionally an unstructured type of training performed over natural terrain. The speed of the session is intermittent, varying from jogging to fast bursts, depending on the terrain and how the athlete feels. Fartlek training can train both the aerobic and anaerobic systems, depending on the make-up of the session.

Hill repeats These are aimed at developing strength endurance and anaerobic threshold or anaerobic capacity. Do them at an intensity similar to that of your 10km race intensity. Hill training has also been shown to be beneficial in improving running economy if the hill is of moderate grade (4 to 6%). It is ideal if each hill takes approximately 2-3 minutes to complete, followed by a an easy jog back to the bottom of the hill between each repeat. Hill training allows high intensity intervals to be done with out placing too much impact stress on the body.

Intervals training Here’s a form of training that alternates bouts of intense exercise with periods of passive or active recovery. Intervals are aimed at improving your performance by allowing you to complete more high-quality work than you would be able to in a single block. The intensity, duration, repetitions and recovery are all variables that can be altered to adjust the type of interval being performed. Intervals are important for runners of all distances and abilities as they allow improvements in speed and performance.

Recovery run An easy run used as active recovery to promote muscle recovery while still offering endurance improvement. Recovery runs are best done at a very low
intensity over flat, natural terrain.

Speedwork This type of training is aimed at improving your speed/performance over the desired racing distance. Speed training encompasses a wide range of training
techniques, including fartlek, intervals, sprints, strides, etc. Typically speed training is done at a pace anywhere between your anaerobic threshold and maximal sprint speed. A general rule to follow when using speed training is that the speed should be greatest when the duration is lowest, and vice-versa.

Strides/run-throughs Strides are aimed at improving technique (and therefore running economy), speed and explosive power. Strides can be 50 to 150m runs conducted at anywhere between 10km race pace and maximal speed. They can be beneficial for runners of all distances and abilities. The speed that you do your strides will generally depend on the distance of the event you are aiming for. For example a 5km runner will
do strides at close to maximal speed while a marathon runner may do strides at 10km race pace. There should be a full recovery between each stride. There are many benefits to be gained from strides, and they can be tailored to suit all types of runners.

Tempo training A form of training that generally uses 1 to 4 intervals of long duration (10-20 mins), at an intensity below anaerobic threshold. Tempo training is a great method of improving running economy, and is a key form of training for the half marathon and marathon runner.

Lactate tolerance threshold A method of training that is aimed at improving the body’s ability to produce and deal with high amounts of lactic acid in the muscles. This generally takes the form of short maximal efforts with a short rest or long maximal effort to fatigue. Lactate tolerance is an important physiological characteristic for runners competing in events 5000m or less.

Go to mcmillian running to figure out your zones for each training type.

www.mcmillanrunning.com/mcmillanrunningcalculator.htm

To answer your question about weight training, all those exercises are good... they will make you stronger which will translate to faster running, especially on hilly courses.

Use tracie's calculators to figure out your Heart rate zones (see earlier post).

Hope this helps. ANGIE

[Brian Luther]

Too All The Heavy Weights!

I'm 6'6" 204lbs....... and yes I can still run a fast pace......

Not saying that "Heavy Weights" can't manage, just that we need to develop "our" speed, in a more methodical method. I'll be honest and say I do like competing in the "Clydesdale" division when it applys..........

As for you Mike! Good Luck in your efforts..... There are a ton of approaches to gain speed and get your pace down under a 6minute mile..... What works for me, may not work for others....

Also, once you break that 6 minute threshold, it may not last forever and you will need to be committed to your training.

Brian

p.s. i also left out one other important factor, one's birthday! yes, our age plays a role too....... No offense intended for anyone who is "age sensitive"...............

[watchman]

Angie

thanks alot
very helpful

I have been familiar with some of this but sometimes I see people interchange terms in different context that did not always seem consistent so I thought I would just ask.

My goal over the winter is to be faster than Iwas in the fall.

It seems like most go basckward during that time. I want to improve not just maintain.
I have seen improvement in the run and the swim in the last 2 months.

Does anyone ever use weighted vests during run training?

Mike

[watchman]

One more question.

the workouts that Angie gave me, How well does this format crossover to the cycling?

I know this may open a whole new set of suggestions.

Just wondering.

Brian I am sure the age issue is important but I want to fight it as long as possible.

I am stronger than at anytime in my life and have more endurance. I am just not as fast.
I am also heavier. I want to get to 160. I am 10lbs away.

mike

[Brian Luther]

Mike,

I think the new thread should be, "Off Season Dreams To Tomorrows PR"

Cycling and faster speeds can be done too. Higher rpms, longer training sessions, sprint sessions........ I am most positive the cycle gurus can offer some better advice... Yet its all in training building, endurance, strength, and speed.

Winter is the time for conditioning for the 08 Season......

You like I favor, the sprint races............. And I like to favor the "Half / Whole" training method..... I.E. my personal method for sprint races..........

If an upcoming race is a 5k run, 10 or20 mile bike, and a 5k run...... And I give myself a month training before the race. I will vary running distances from 3miles to 6miles during the week, complimenting that with 20 to 40 mile bike rides. Two runs and two bike rides at minimum per week, and throwing in a brick workout maybe every other week in place of run or bike ride........ Also, I throw in my "push ups" and "sit ups" for strength training during the week. Twice a week at one hour each session.

With my training for a duathlon, in those four weeks I will run a 5k to 10k race, and also compete in a bike race up to 30 miles to get ready too. I do like to workout at least 4 times in a given week, with two rest days.......

Now that you are in your best shape ever, you are ready for that next step. Can I say exactly what you need to do, no. I would continue with the Winter Cross Training, watch your weight and focus on losing those 10lbs....... Be careful, sometimes increased muscle develops into weight gain.

As for your age, I am 39 and will always think of myself as being young at heart unless my body tells me differently.....

Brian

p.s. does that help some?

[keaveny]

rob said:

Im 5' 10" and 190.

I think they're telling us to lose some weight...bastards!

And here I thought I was about 8-10 lbs. away from rock-freakin'-solid. Bastards, indeed.

There must be some mathematical equation on power overcoming weight to produce speed.

[watchman]

"There must be some mathematical equation on power overcoming weight to produce speed. "

The only place that works that I know of is with a Top Fuel Dragster.

More weight, drag, produces more load on the engine which causes it to burn more fuel and make more power. ( around 8000 horsepower).

I do not think it will work that way with us since we do not burn Nitro-Methane!

and yes Brian what you shared is helpful like everyones comments
thanks

a side note about Drag Racing. The real bottom line reason I am doing triathlons is to stay in shape for the possibilty I might have the chance to drive a Top Fuel Dragster.

0- 100mph in less than 1 second. 270mph in 2.5 seconds and 336mph in 4.4 seconds. The most exciting 4 seconds in motorsports.
3.5 on the richter scale just idling
more G's than trhe space shuttle.

If it happens I will make sure a Greater Cleveland Triathlon Club decal is on the car.


mike

[keaveny]

watchman said:

"There must be some mathematical equation on power overcoming weight to produce speed. "

The only place that works that I know of is with a Top Fuel Dragster.

I do not think it will work that way with us since we do not burn Nitro-Methane!

Is Guinness anywhere close to Nitro-Methane? If so, I am in the ballgame!

0- 100mph in less than 1 second. 270mph in 2.5 seconds and 336mph in 4.4 seconds. The most exciting 4 seconds in motorsports.

Just in motorsports?

[watchman]

gas is for cleaning parts
alcohol is for drinking

Nitro is for racing

I agree not just motorsports

the most exciting 4 seconds .

mike

[watchman]

one last question

is there an order for during the differents kinds of running.

Long, intervals, tempo, recovery?

what is the order of the days during the week?

mike

[Brandon]

Most important thing is to be sure you are fully recovered for each hard workout regardless of where in the week you place them IMO. Most folks need at least 1 or 2 days of rest/recovery between a long/interval/tempo run. Adding in swim and bike workouts complicates things. I do 2 hard run workouts per week (assuming I feel fully recovered) 3 to 4 days apart. If I don't feel fully recovered my speedwork gets scrapped for a recovery paced run to be sure I can get my long run in.

I'm sure there are others who put in much more speedwork than I and have their own approach.

[elizabeth]

A typical training program would have a speed/interval session Tuesday, Tempo Thursday, and Long run Saturday or Sunday. The days you do each depends on how much recovery you need from each type of workout. Then you throw in recovery workouts on your off days.

You could do do these in any order, but the long run is usually Saturday or Sunday because that is when most people have time to do it. I'm not sure why speed is typically Tuesday and tempo Thursday but I've found that most runners I know follow that schedule.

[Angie]

My schedule is similar to Elizabeth's. I do my speed intervals on tuesday, tempo on thursday, easy/recovery run on friday or saturday and long/hilly run on sunday. That way I have monday to recover from the long run (I usually swim on monday... it loosens the legs nicely). Seems to work out pretty well.

ANGIE

[watchman]

Angie , Elizabeth, Brandon

thanks alot very helpful

just curious

when do you add in the other swim times and bike per week.

I am finding that juggling to fit this all in the the real challenge to Tri training. I also add in weight lifting 3 times per week.

just wondering how you guys do it.

mike

[elizabeth]

I haven't done any tri specific training in awhile but when I did I tried to get a minimum of 2 workouts in each discipline every week. Three in my weak link if I wasn't focused on a running event too.

Let's say running is your weak link. The schedule I would do would probably look like the following.

Monday- Swim or Rest (swim if you plan to rest Friday)
Tuesday- Run-Speed
Wednesday- Swim and Bike
Thursday- Tempo Run (If I missed the bike Wed I might even turn this into a backwards brick with a run and bike)
Friday-Swim or rest (swim if you rested Monday)
Saturday- Long run or Brick (Nice thing about bricks is you can simulate tired legs that you would have at the end of a long run, without the pounding of the long run, this doesn't replace a long run and what it does for you, but can be a nice change once in awhile, especially if you don't feel recovered from the week and as a bonus gets you ready for the bike to run transition)
Sunday- Bike (If you did a brick Saturday this can be an easy bike or an easy run)

[jetlink]

Hey Watchman,

Don't overcomplicate things by looking at the whole week at one glance.......sort of like preparing for a really big race that you have yet to go the distance at - it can be very very discouraging and seem impossible if you look at the whole thing......

So, try and think of what you'll do today and tommorrow with the goal of doing at least 2 swims, 2 bikes and 2 runs p/week. Maybe get out a piece of paper and write your week out and then focus on executing each day......I think you'll end up surprising yourself at what your able to accomplish and you'll meet all of your workout goals in terms of frequency!!

Take care and happy training......

[watchman]

thanks for all the input. It is amazing how clear things can get when you bounce things off different people. Very helpful

mike

[jodi]

OK, this will bring out the CTC injury police...

To rehab my knee I started out with frequency over duration (started with 3-4 days per week, 2 miles per day). And have been working up slowly. But this is pretty much my schedule and has kept me remarkably injury free *knock on wood* and I've gotten a bunch faster:

M: Swim and run
T: Bike and run
W: Swim and run
R: Bike and run
F: Swim and run
S: Bike and long run
S: Long bike and run

When I'm on a good month for work like December was, swims are 4000 yards, rides have been 1:15-1:30 except Sun which is 2-2:30 (all cycling has intensity), and runs are all 30-45 minutes pretty easy, with a long of 1-1:20 on Saturday. Bad months, volume drops a ton and there will be months that I can't get into the pool because of my schedule. But I will try to keep up the running. I miss a day here and there, and later in the year I'll drop one or two per week and increase the distance per run. I really think that frequency is safer on the joints than people who run 2 times per week, with one of them 8+ miles.

[Angie]

Here is my schedule.. ideal... keep in mind.... sometimes I do not get all the lifting in.

M: Swim- 1 hr, upper body/core weight
T: Interval run- 45-50 mins, lower body/core weight
W: Bike w/Pete (excel in cycling)- 2 hr
Th: Tempo run- 1 hr, upper body/core weight
Fr: Bike- 1 hr, lower body/core weight
Sat: Swim- 1.5 hr, easy run- 30-40 mins
Sun: Long run- 1 hr up to 2 hr (increase 15 mins each week)

I will add a 3rd swim later in the season; and then change that to open water once the water gets warm enough and will add a long bike on sat after the swim. Bricks will also be added later in the season.
My weakness is running... so the reason for the 4X run.
It is a little tricky getting it all in while working full time but most of the time it works out. Usually I will do one workout before work and another after work or after dinner.

This schedule includes 3 weeks of progressive build followed by an easier 4th week. This seems to work for me. Keep in mind that I am training for a half ironman... but oly distance training would be very similar this time of year. ANGIE

[m gorris]

Mike,

Not a running expert, but some thoughts:

#1. You say you are coming off an ankle injury, how has it healed?

If you are still in the healing process, I would skip all forms of speed work/tempo work until you are sure all is well.

#2. Your run volume

3x's a week @ 5 miles leaves tons of room for more miles. Again, before I would add any type of speed/tempo work, concentrate on building a long run to around 1.5 hrs. Don't worry so much right now about quality [and I am a big quality vs quanity guy] as you need to get in more miles. More miles as many times a week as time will allow. If time is a limiter with all 3 sports, alternate weeks, focusing on the bike one week and the run the other. You can swim as much as you like since swimming is so low impact.

#3. Reverse pyramid

Right now, building miles [as mentioned above] should be your key for running. Worry about tempo/track stuff come spring. Now as far as the bike, to save time and build a great bike foundation, why not try what guys like Charmichael and McCormack advocate- interval based threshold training. You build intensity now in winter and focus on endurance and long rides outdoors once the weather breaks in the spring
I, as others, do these type of workouts all winter. 45' to 1hr 15' using power and hr. This is a bit different then spending 2-3 hrs on the trainer in an aerobic zone. A bit wordy to explain in the context of this forum, but the program Pete Gladden runs is a very similiar approach to the protocol I am suggesting.

Just my 2 cents, good luck with the injury recovery

[Brandon]

My training schedule looks something like this:

Mon: Recovery Swim
Tues: Bike and Run
Wed: Bike- intervals and hill repeats with Excel in Cycling
Thurs: Swim and Tempo/Interval run
Fri: Rest
Sat: Swim and Long Bike- will include some long ride/short run bricks late in season
Sun: Long run - will include some short, hard bike/long run bricks late in season

This gets me 3 workouts in each discipline per week and my focus is on the half-iron distance. I tried to include a little weight work this off-season which turned into pull-ups and dips in order that I could get in my swim/bike/run workouts. Dave makes a good point to only focus on a day or 2 at a time, once you get your general routine set so that it seems more manageable. A nice online training log, which really helps in the planning, is available here:
www.buckeyeoutdoors.com/login.html