Thoughts on a long swim this early?

[Aussie Rob]

I'm usually comfortable in the water. Not particularly fast, but comfortable for long periods. I'm swimming around 3000 yards a session as it is, sometimes more, sometimes less depending what i have going that day.

Is it too early to add say a 5000 yard swim once a week in February? I guess i don't see adding distance in swimming nearly as taxing as i do on the bike or run. Is it a mistake this early to throw this in once a week to build endurance?

[alison]

Do you swim the 3000 yds straight through, or do you swim a structured workout?

If you are swimming the 3000 straight through, just resting when you get tired, I would first suggest finding some good swimming sets to work into your 3000 yds, then increase your yardage when you get comfortable with that. Just like in running, if you always run long and slow you will never run fast, and if you always swim long and slow, you will never swim fast.

Of maybe you already have well structured sets you are doing? If you do repeat 100s or 200s, then it might be a good idea to include an occasional longer set, with some 400s or 500s, maybe doing some of them broken, or negative split, or build or descend.

I am not trying to discourage you completely from increasing your yardage. More yardage can be good, eventually. I just want to make sure you are swimming quality yardage before you add on more. I am a strong believer that the quality of the workout is not directly proportional to the yardage completed. If you add on 2000 more yards of mindless swimming, very little good with come of it.

On a personal note, if I were to add 2000 extra to the distance I am used to swimming right now, my stroke would probably fall apart, and that is not good swimming. Add on slowly.

Alison

[Steve Yutzy]

Agreed (and I'm not just agreeing with Alison because I have to live with her...)

I'd like to think you wouldn't think about that kind of increase in volume for your run or bike, so the same principles apply to swimming as well. However, swimming is a different beast when it comes to training.

Although there is certainly a place (a small place) for long swims, those are the exception rather than the rule. Doing something like 10x300 will be much more beneficial to you as a swimmer than a 3000 straight. 50s, 100s, 200s, etc are not the triathlete's enemy, in fact they should be your bread and butter. My milers that I coach have done exactly one swim this entire season over a mile. The rest is shorter, incorporating drills, low rest, race pace, aerobic threshold, etc. And they all race over the longer distance without any problems.

IMHO, the same logic that says we need our long bikes and long runs just doesn't apply to swimming.

[Aussie Rob]

Yeah, ive been doing quality sets recently and trying to be conscious of my stroke mechanics. Triathlete mag (road to Kona) had a bit encouraging one long workout of each sport a week. I already have a marginally longer trainer ride, and a long run....I was just wondering if anyone thought long swim would be beneficial too. Maybe ill just add an extra quality 500 at race pace for now to one of my sessions.

[robreddy]

rob

alison and steve are rite on

i sent you some workouts in email - check them out

woudl NEVER have anyone do a 3000 y swim - we can talk about why

i have done the same basic swim work out for more than a YEAR - after warm up it is basically 50s & 100s - still swam a 54 IM

lets talk aobut this some time this week

r

[MattCollister]

Jen and I were talking about this yesterday - the value of a long swim.

I totally understand the argument to not swim anything like a 3,000 yard set. You'll have good form for about 200 yards, then swim like a dog for the remaining 2800.

I have to say, though, that when I was "training scared" (saw this term in one of Charlie's posts recently) for my first IM, and coming into it all with no swimming background whatsoever, the marathon swim session did a lot for my confidence in the water.

Yeah, it was pretty sloppy swimming. And no, it probably didn't do my form any favors. But touching the wall after 60 laps did a lot for my psyche. It was one of those things, like the 100-mile bike ride, that gave me the confidence to say to myself, "I can do this." That's huge.

BUT, I will also say that I had my best, fastest Ironman swim the year I didn't do ANY long (over 300 yds) pool sets.

[bberk1]

I also agree with allison and don't live with her or know her for that matter. Sets are the way to go.

The longest set I ever did in hs was 100 100's. It was a long and boring workout. Probably the hardest part is counting them.

[Aussie Rob]

Ok i understand the reason not to do >500 sets. Your stroke breaks down and you swim less than ideally the rest of the way. But the question has to be asked...

An IM swim is 2.4 miles, 85 laps. You don't have the luxury of stopping after 500 years because your stroke goes to hell. My form goes to hell on long runs too, but that doesn't mean i shouldn't run long should it? I need to teach my body to run these distances without falling apart. Doesn't it then make sense to teach your body to swim the distance with the goal of maintaining the best possible form for as long as possible? Like we do with our running? Long swims in theory build swim endurance the same as long runs build run endurance doesn't it? In both cases, you can hold good form for longer than you could if you didn't do this kind of training no?

It just seems counter intuitive not to swim 4000 yards in prep for a 4000 yard swim in the race.

[bberk1]

For marathon training the longest run is typically 20 miles. that's a 10k short of the full distance. Everything is different on race day.

[Steve Yutzy]

Matt makes a good point, surviving a long swim like that can probably be a good confidence booster if you feel like you need it.

Coming from a swimming background, 10-15 seconds rest during a set is almost an eternity. So if I compare doing 10x200 vs 2000, physiologically I'm getting a fairly similar benefit, keeping my body swimming for some period of time. But just that little break every few hundred gives me a chance to calm down and make sure I'm following my goals for the set: good form, holding a pace, descending a pace, negative splitting, whatever my goals may be.

Looking at the best distance swimmers in the world, they might do some longer swims occasionally, but day in day out the thing that makes them better swimmers is sets. They can be long sets, but they're still taking breaks every now and then to make sure they're "present". (present = mentally there, thinking about your swimming rather than your girlfriend, upcoming meetings, american gladiators, etc.)

[alison]

Alright, I will jump in one more time on this one.

Swimming is sooooo very different from running and cycling in that technique alone can get you very far as a swimmer. I am scrawny with little upper body strength, but can swim 12-13 strokes per length, easy; good form gets me there, not strength. We are triathletes, we all have good endurance already, now translate that to a new motion. Swimming shorter intervals will give you a chance to regroup and focus on the stroke mechanics.

On race day you will be scared, excited, and many other emotions, so when the swim starts you won't be thinking about how good your stroke looks, but that is okay because your body has learned what to do without you thinking about it, due to the many miles of mindful swimming you have put in this winter.

I am not going to completely discourage you from doing a long swim in the pool. Do a 1000 yd swim once, just to see, or do a timed 20 minute swim, just to see how it goes, but if it all starts to fall apart, don't push it, practice some more and try again some other time.

That is my advice, take it or leave it
Alison

[alison]

haha, sorry Steve, we were writing at the same time, and I kinda repeat you a bit.
It is almost like we have swam a lot together before . . .

[Aussie Rob]

I hear what you're saying alison, and i do already have decent technique (9 to 11 strokes a length) i was just looking for ways to improve my endurance. I talked to Reddy about it some last night too and he gave me some things to do instead of the long swim im going to try.

Thanks all for the opinions/advice. Always appreciated.

[timritt]

lot better swimmers to give you advice but will give you my 2 cents. Agree with Matt C about the confidence. No reason not to do a long set if you are unsure of your long distance swimming. Lately my imaz swim training has been 1 - 1000yd set followed by 10-100yds every 2minutes. Found it gives my some distance and some stroke/speed work. If you are not getting any faster than I think your better off biking or running more than increasing swimming yardage.

tr