|
Post by Aussie Rob on Oct 10, 2007 20:31:40 GMT -5
I've been back training for a couple of weeks now, just getting the body used to running again, and im getting ready to start training with a plan again.
My off season is going to be almost entirely run focused, and all the marathon training programs online gives me the shits because they're all in miles, and i hate measuring my routes. Besides, i can't think of a good way to mark off key points along the way. I'm going to do my runs based off time, and since i can't find a good time based program, i was wondering if any of you knew a good one?
Failing that, i was wondering if i could just plan my own one and roughly increase it slightly each week (roughly 10%, often slightly less) for 12 weeks? All starting time distances can be done fairly comfortably bar the tempo which i expect will kick my arse. I anticipate being ok on the long run too if i back off the pace a little.
Monday - rest Tuesday - 40 mins regular (top out at 90 mins) Wednesday - 40 mins tempo (top out at 90 mins) Thursday - 60 mins regular (top out at 120 mins) Friday - rest Saturday - Hills with the club Sunday - long run starting at 90 mins (top out at 3 hours)
Is this a completely dumb idea? Or does it look like a half decent training plan? There will be swimming in there too, 3 times a week - but swimming makes me feel loose so im looking at time in the water almost as recovery time.
As always, thanks for any info/advice.
|
|
|
Post by michellemead on Oct 10, 2007 22:30:02 GMT -5
Hi Rob: I do almost all my workouts based on Time and Heart Rates. Something that works for me instead of doing just long runs... think about long bricks ie 1 hour run - z-1 then 1 hour on bike z1-2 with some high cadence spining pick ups - then another 1 hour run w/ some z3 pick up = 3 hour workout yet not getting beat up - and teaching you to run fast off the bike - killing couple birds w/ one stone!! Works for me... give it a tri Enjoy!! ;D
|
|
|
Post by Charlie on Oct 10, 2007 23:18:55 GMT -5
Rob, Two things I notice. 1. Spread the big workouts out throughout the week. maybe do the long day on Tuesday with an easy day in between that and the Tempo. 2. I am not sure there is any benefit in going longer than an HR on an easy day.
Tired legs are a ticket to injury. Multisports teaches us how to spread the load. The hardest part of a marathon is getting to the starting line. Stay healthy.
|
|
|
Post by Brandon on Oct 11, 2007 9:31:08 GMT -5
To reiterate what Chalie has mentioned, the hill workout followed by the long workout seems dangerous. Also, other than the tempo and long workout, you may benefit staying under an hour for the recovery days. The way I look at it, most runners benefit from 2 to 3 hard running days/week (3 for more experienced runners), anything more risks injury, unless you're Scott Jurek or something. If you're wearing yourself down on the hills and long workout, you can always break the tempo run down...for example instead of an hour tempo workout you could do
20 min. EZ 20 min. tempo 20 min. EZ
This still gives your body a chance to train at the tempo pace and work on your stamina without taking the toll of an hour tempo workout.
What I do when running on the road is estimate my pace (approx. 9:00/ mile for long runs) and then just multiply it by what is on the training schedule, so if I have a 10 miler I'd run for about an hour and a half. Using a training schedule as a guide helps me determine when and how much mileage/time to add.
|
|
|
Post by Matt Luck on Oct 11, 2007 10:23:56 GMT -5
Rob,
Michelle offers some great insight into using the HR monitor.
Regarding your structure:
1. are you going to be eliminating all your tri training and just focusing on your running?
If you are going to be cross training you are running too much.
Remember you need to account for any swim workouts. A hard swim workout counts as a hard workout and recovery issues need to be addressed. What about bike workouts, because they will come into play as the spring gets closer?
2. Your tempo run of 40 minutes moving to 90 minutes is too long to gain the proper benefits, assuming you are running the proper pace. The pace of a tempo run should place you near the point of your aerobic/anaerobic threshold.
3. If by a tempo run, you mean marathon pace, meaning you are going to run for 90 minutes at your intended goal marathon pace than that is quite acceptable.
4. Your 3 hour run is too long. Not knowing the pace your are running capping out at 2.5 hours should meet the needs for most runners.
You might find it beneficial to supplement your long run by adding in a longer bike ride.
5. Ideally you wouldwant to move your tempo to Tuesday and move your hill run to Thursday. The hill run counts as a hard workout and can add undue stress to the body by having the long run the next day.
|
|
|
Post by Aussie Rob on Oct 11, 2007 10:42:42 GMT -5
Just a heavy run focus, but not exclusively running. I'll still be swimming, and will probably spend time spinning on the trainer a couple times a week just to maintain some semblance of bike fitness - not looking for bike gains over the winter. My tempo run goal is to be slightly faster than race pace, about 30seconds per mile faster.
Rob Reddy expressed concern with the possible conflict of the saturday hill workout with most peoples long runs being on a sunday. I'm not experienced enough to say. Rob - any thoughts about changing the hill workout to a weeknight if you plan on doing the long run thing every other sunday when you're not swimming?
I kind of looked at the hill workout as a hard anaerobic day, while long runs for me are going to be easier aerobic days, so i didn't see it as much of a conflict other than tired legs, hence the monday off - but if i knew that for sure i wouldnt be on here asking advice.
Thanks for the input guys. So dial it back a little on easy days, shorten the top out length of the long run, and break up the hard workouts more. If i start feeling fatigued i'll probably drop one of the non-key runs bringing me down to 4 runs a week. Cool, all good info! Any other opinions are always welcome. Thanks again.
|
|
|
Post by m gorris on Oct 11, 2007 11:50:09 GMT -5
Rob, Some very good advice so far. There is, however, one MAJOR fault of your program. Since the title of your thread is "Marathon Training," I am to believe that you are training for a marathon, correct? If this is the case, then you have left out one very important factor, YOUR GOAL TIME. If your goal is to just finish a marathon, then your best bet is to gradually increase your long run up through 20 miles, perhaps 22. I know you said you can't stand using miles as a measurement but unfortunately, that is how most races are measured . So let's assume you have a goal time. The key is to pick a time that is both attainable and at the same time will stretch you a bit. With that "GOAL TIME" in hand you now have everything you need to devise a training plan and finish your marathon. Again, assuming that your goal time is not too off base [on the low end of the time scale / high end of degree of difficulty], it's a matter of plugging in your goal time PACE [ Can't stress enough the importance of this] to the two key workouts you should be doing; your long run and your tempo run. Long run: Try as best as possible to do these NO slower than 1' per mile off your goal pace. It's ok to start your long runs a bit slower, say 90" per mile max. But once you get into the bulk of your long run you want to be running these at no slower than 1' per mile off goal. Now, if after a few of these long runs you find yourself absolutely destroyed, or if they are very difficult to complete, guess what? Yep, your goal pace/time is a bit overzealous. Remember, come race day you are gonna be running 1' per mile FASTER! You might also want to try a second type of long run. In fact, it is good to do one of these every three weeks in your marathon training program. Run these as you would your normal long run, but towards the end of the long run, throw in several miles at mary pace. THis teaches your body how to handle the stress of running at your goal pace when your body is starting to tire. TEMPO run: Run this once a week and spread it out from your long run. I agree that 40' building to one hour is MUCH too long for a true tempo run. Your tempo should start off at 15' and build to a max of 40'. Your tempo pace, by scientific definition, is your AT pace. That is, your body can clear the lactate your muscles produce but any faster and your start build lactate faster than you can clear, thus resulting in the all too familiar feeling of super heavy legs and burning lungs. The EASY way to figure out your tempo pace is to take a recent CERTIFIED 10k race and add about 15" to your average pace. You can also use a recent CERTIFIED half marathon race and use that as your tempo pace guide. One final note, when using a prior race pace make sure it was a solid effort on a course that was not too easy and not too difficult so as to get as realistic a pace as possible [hence the BOLD notation of CERTIFIED] ;D I know this might be a lot of info to digest but then again, a marthon ain't no walk in the park either! Best of luck
|
|
|
Post by robreddy on Oct 11, 2007 12:55:57 GMT -5
Rob I'm working on changing the hill run to (most likely) tuesday night - M and I talked a bit about this yesterday - the one challenge is day light - we probably need to start at 5:30 SHARP something to discuss Saturday Also..... Matt & Mark - i don;t necessarily want to speak for Rob but, i think the goal here is to not necessarily run the very fastest stand alone Mary possibly, rather to get prepared for the mary in an IM (first time IM - i think that makes a difference, I know my goal in my first IM was to survive the Mary, that changes with more and more IMs). I "think" we would all agree that a stand along Mary v. an IM Mary are two very different things. Would any of your advice be different for someone looking to maximize or really simply prepare for a 'first time' IM mary? I would presume bricks would be a key issue - but since we are talking about building base/basic run ability over the fall/winter months (added limitation of not really being able to execute a good brick in a cleve winter) and the brick ability would be built during the spring/summer (read Epic Fridays) - what are your thoughts? ? r r
|
|
|
Post by m gorris on Oct 11, 2007 14:22:46 GMT -5
Rob, Good stuff as always. I was thinking Rob was training for a marathon of the stand-alone variety. If he is, in fact, looking to train for a first time mary in an IM, then I would change my advice. As you mentioned, bricks would make up a large percentage of his spring / summer running and this winter would be a great time to load up on base miles. I might even suggest running the tempo run as more of a steady state or progression run [that dreaded grey area Matt eluded to] vs a true tempo run this far away from his IM. That type of run will build endurance and add a bit of speed, plus it has the added benefit of decreasing the pace as the miles build thus building in some much needed strength that will be called upon after 112 on the bike! I will, however, state that the long run and tempo run should still be an intergal part of any IM plan once winter ends and spring arrives. I am also a HUGE fan of training for an IM mary as you would an open, although some might disagree. With the exception of the brick, most marathon plans stress the long and tempo runs as the foundation and it should not differ with the IM plan. As well, the pace differential between open and IM mary training should not have such a large delta. Altering your pace by a significant amount leads to changes in running form. Believe it or not, you can sometimes do more harm than good by trying to run slower than your body is accustomed to. I think that approaching an IM mary as something to run vs something to survive will pay dividends on race day...even for a first timer. You are not gonna run as fast as you would in a stand-alone, but you might just surprise yourself out there as a certain Mr R.R did at IMLou this year
|
|
|
Post by michellemead on Oct 11, 2007 15:55:45 GMT -5
Yes, i do the dreaded winter brick - in the really cold weather will do long bike training - then don the running clothes like transition and head outside!! Run-bike- Runs are closer to spring - but i do bricks year round. Also, my flat out marathon only training was very similar to my 1/2 IM - can't speak for the full IM distance since this has been my first tri season. I have been running a long time - sooo i have also worked to improve form and efficency while running. (increased cadence and form drills) After warming up of course!! These have been some great posts...Proud to be a member of such great brain trust of information!! Rob, not sure the plan for hills - i only do a limited amount of hill training usually only 6 weeks or soooo of building - then move to faster tempo workouts - also depends what the "A" race courses will look like!
PS: My goal is to get my multi races within a few min of my flat out running only races!
M ;D
|
|
|
Post by Aussie Rob on Oct 11, 2007 16:50:07 GMT -5
You speak better for me than i do Rob I left out some crucial information. Im not doing this so i can crush a stand alone mary - i dont even care if i run an actual marathon, i just figured it would be a good place to start in building a solid run foundation that i will need next year in Wisconsin. That's what this is all about - building a strong running base for IM. Sure i might do a stand alone mary in the spring for fun and as an intermediate training goal, but at the end of the day, this is all about getting ready for Wisconsin. My ideal goal would be a 4 hour IM mary, so 9min/mile race pace. The stand alone goal would be just to finish comfortably, maybe 3:45 if i had to name a time, but ill have a better idea in a couple of months i imagine. As far as the tempo goes, i thought about doing the pyramid type tempo run that Durno showed me. The tempo and long runs will be staples in my week and here to stay until after the IM. You guys are a huge help. Given me a lot to think about.
|
|
|
Post by jetlink on Oct 11, 2007 23:20:52 GMT -5
Hey there Rob,
So the big goal is IM Wisconsin - that marry will be a bit different than a stand-alone for sure.....if you want to go for a 4hr in Wisconsin than be in 3:30 shape for a stand-alone.....that is a minimum starting point for sure.
I think that your plan of building a strong running base is a really good plan. BUT - your race will be almost a year from now so if you don't plan on going out and "crushing" a marathon then I'd suggest you lay off of the speed work (i.e. tempo runs) for now and just focus on maintaining a nice and steady mileage build. I would not run anything too hard yet and I would also try to run on softer surfaces as much as possible.
I guess my whole point is that if you only want to focus on the IM and forgo any marathon training than to start speedwork really early can/may open yourself up for setbacks due to injury and recovery issues. Your just getting your running shape back and for now I'd focus on that - If I were in your shoes I'd actually not even begin to think of pushing the pace untill January at the earliest. Go out and just run - try to focus on a really nice and relaxed form - keep you hands cupped loosely and close to your hips - focus on nice and loose shoulders and easy breathing from your belly - just go and run easy......slowly build your mileage from weekly base of high teens to low 30's by January. Take it very easy now and you will reap the rewards of your patience later.
Take care - happy/safe training!!
|
|
|
Post by robreddy on Oct 12, 2007 9:28:44 GMT -5
rob
dave's words are HUGE - he (and mark g) helped me a ton with my running last year (hopefully again this year) - i remember running with dave in the Dec - March time frame - hour+ runs at a moderate pace for me and very easy pace for Dave. these guys really had me doing no speed work at all - not till mid spring did i do any real tempo or threashold running.
i will say i think the hill running i did in the fall and spring really helped me. i have no clue why other than it made me tough. i also entered a number of 5K races in late fall and spring - capped it off running the cleve 1/2 mary - i think the road racing also helped me a lot
r
|
|