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Post by MarkD on Oct 7, 2008 20:18:27 GMT -5
So, I'm sitting here, listening to the second debate. I'm scoring this to see if either candidate answers any questions directly. If they do they get 2 points. If they don't, they get zero points. If they kind of answer it, they get 1 point. I'm paraphrasing the questions and I'm only dealing with the questions asked by the town hall folks (not by the moderator):
Q1: How will you assist aging americans who are close to retirement with this current financial crisis? McCain = 0 Obama = 0
Q2: How will the bailout package help me (a middle class individual)? McCain = 0 Obama = 1
Q3: How can we trust either of you when both parties got us into this financial mess? McCain = 1 Obama = 1
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Post by MarkD on Oct 7, 2008 20:33:05 GMT -5
Q4: What sacrifice will you ask of every american to assist in getting us out of this economic crisis? McCain = 1 Obama = 2
Q5: How will you reform medicare and social security within 2 years of taking office? McCain = 1 Obama = 0
Q6: What would you do to ensure that congress moves fast, within 2 years, to address environmental issues and green job creation? McCain = 1 Obama = 1
Q7: Do you believe health care should be treated as a commodity? McCain = 1 Obama = 1
Q8: How is America going to be a peace maker in the world? McCain = 1 Obama = 1
Q9: Should we respect Pakistan's soverignty (sp?) or move in and pursue Al-Quaida there? McCain = 2 Obama = 2
Q10: How can we deal effectively with an emerging Russia without starting another cold war? McCain = 2 Obama = 1
Q11: If Iran attacks Isreal, would the U.S. directly defend Isreal or would we wait until the UN approves it? McCain = 2 Obama = 1
Q12: What don't you know and how will you learn it? McCain = 1 Obama = 0
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Post by MarkD on Oct 7, 2008 21:37:29 GMT -5
McCain = 13 Obama = 11
I was fascinated at how little either one of them we able to directly answer the citizens questions. They did a much better job answering Brokaw's follow-up questions directly...
Both dudes did a good job explaining their positions well even though they weren't directly answering questions.
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Post by Charlie on Oct 7, 2008 22:33:11 GMT -5
So who won?......Was it "That One"? To bad, McCain actually was pretty good. The near slur is sure to get some spin.
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Post by Aussie Rob on Oct 7, 2008 22:46:12 GMT -5
I got tired of the same talking points from both of them, as well as hearing the same answers from the first debate. CNN seems to think Obama won pretty handily - politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/10/07/cnn-analysts-and-contributors-weigh-in-obama-won/Not that i really think it matters who won....so much furious obsession to whittle a long debate into 2 words "<insert name> won" like it actually quantifies the debate or either mans position across many complex issues somehow. Whats important is how undecideds viewed it and if it will affect how they vote.
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Post by MarkD on Oct 8, 2008 7:07:19 GMT -5
The pundits (even the republican ones) say McCain was improved, but Obama "won". I agree with Rob - it ain't that simple. The thing I like about this election is that the person you vote for will define your beliefs about economic policy. It simply comes down to this: Tax the wealthy more to provide for the less for fortunate; or Give the wealthy tax breaks and incentives with the trust that they will let the prosperity trickle down. This election, more that any other, it would be wonderful to have a strong third party option.
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Post by robreddy on Oct 8, 2008 8:00:41 GMT -5
what debate - there was a debate
i'm sooooo out of it
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Post by Aussie Rob on Oct 8, 2008 8:09:03 GMT -5
Well, if it comes down to that then i think the answer is pretty simple. Vote Obama (unless you make a ton of money). It's common knowledge to anyone who has taken a couple of econ classes that trickle down doesn't work. Here's a decent article about it from the NYT from last year (before the election cycle). www.nytimes.com/2007/04/12/business/12scene.htmlIf you want a more in depth analysis, i have a ton of notes and my econ text books ill lend ya edit - Don't worry about it Rob. Just show up on election day and vote a straight dem ticket....trust me
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Post by watchman on Oct 8, 2008 8:20:02 GMT -5
Someone help me with this. I am talking to Obama supporters. I want to give Obama a chance. I sit and listen and try to be objective. I hear him talk about growing up with hardship then how he made it. The problem ; there is this gap in his history. How did he pay for Harvard? How did he pay for a 1.6 million dollar house without ever having a job? I just get an uneasy feeling about him when he talks . Like from a used car salesman that you cannot trust. Does anyone else have concerns about his past ? Does anyone else feel even a little uneasy about him? I am asking his supporters. I know you hate Bush and the present situation but is support for Obama just out of opposition to Bush? Do any of you have even the least little bit of doubt about his integrity? If not how did you get to that point of trusting him? I am just asking. He is a good, even smooth talker. I understand and see his appeal. I know someone who has met him one on one about 2 months ago. They told me he is mesmerizing in person. They also said it made them nervous about him. I am not asking to argue but to understand what it is that makes you support him. It seems strange how this guy was such an unknown a very short time ago. Did you know that in the Senate the seating is arranged by seniority? The longer you are in the senate the closer to the front you get to sit. For the first time in our country's history a freshman Senator is in the front row. Guess who? Barry. I stood next to his desk and read the bronze name plate. I asked the congressman who brought me there Why? He said he did not know. I just wonder How can this be? Who is this guy? Do any supporters even feel a little concern? Here is who I would vote for if he could run again but not possible www.youtube.com/watch?v=X39dGQmBEwwmike
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Post by MattCollister on Oct 8, 2008 8:47:54 GMT -5
As a card-carrying member of Obamanation, I generally find myself reduced to a drooling, blabbering fool when ever I hear Barak Obama's voice. I get as giddy as a school girl. It's actually quite embarassing. So, take that into account. I think Obama was already a US senator when they bought the house in question (plus, a best-selling author). And Michelle was an attorney with some big firm. More about the home purchase: www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/rezko_reality.htmlI think even McCain gave up on that one. As to how he got himself through Harvard, I am guessing he did something really shady, like student loans. No idea on the Senate seating. Probably some conspiracy having to do with the Freemasons.
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Post by Jack Carney on Oct 8, 2008 9:00:41 GMT -5
CNN thinks Obama won? Really? Now there's a news story. Thank God it was followed up by a much more objective source like the NYT.
Vote Obama if you think you make too much money and want to give some of it to him so he can make your decisions for you since you are obviously not capable. If you think he won't tax you I can't help you.
From Rush Limbaugh: Q"What do Osama Bin Laden and Barack Obama have in common? A: " They both have friends who have bombed the Pentagon."
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Post by Jack Carney on Oct 8, 2008 9:06:15 GMT -5
Update on last post lest I be seen as insulting to anyone. What I mean by incapable is how the politicians who want your tax dollars see the general public not me saying you are incapable if you vote for him.
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Post by watchman on Oct 8, 2008 9:10:03 GMT -5
As a card-carrying member of Obamanation, I generally find myself reduced to a drooling, blabbering fool when ever I hear Barak Obama's voice. I get as giddy as a school girl. It's actually quite embarassing. So, take that into account. I think Obama was already a US senator when they bought the house in question (plus, a best-selling author). And Michelle was an attorney with some big firm. More about the home purchase: www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/rezko_reality.htmlI think even McCain gave up on that one. As to how he got himself through Harvard, I am guessing he did something really shady, like student loans. No idea on the Senate seating. Probably some conspiracy having to do with the Freemasons. Matt You are reacting like I am accusing . I am not I am asking There is alot of info out there . I am sure most is not true. I know you are into sarcasm ( which I like and think is funny) but I am serious. What is it that makes you support him? You seem pretty smart on other stuff so I want to know. be serious for at least one post , then go back to sarcasm also be honest with me do you have even a little uneasiness? or are you 100% sold on him? mike
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Post by Aussie Rob on Oct 8, 2008 9:39:59 GMT -5
He paid for college like most people; loans and grants. What do you mean never having a job? He was an attorney, as was his wife before both of them became public servants. I'm guessing he bought his house with a regular mortgage like anyone else. The Rezko crap has been thoroughly debunked.
Why would him being a good speaker make me uneasy of him? Since when is that a negative trait?
As far as why i support him, that's easy. As a member of a middle income family with kids, his platform caters to me; McCain's doesn't nearly as well. I could go through the various issues that i care about, but that would be a boring read.
I trust him because i think he genuinely gives a crap. Before he went to law school he worked in Chicago as a community organiser to try and help clean up bad neighborhoods there. That speaks to his character imo because guys that don't give a crap don't choose to do that. After law school he was a civil rights attorney (a noble endeavor imo) and taught constitutional law....so he understands the document that makes America the country it is, and probably respects it a great deal (how can you not, greatest living document in history imo). I don't like it when people mess with it, and i doubt he'll try.
When i moved to the USA, i didn't identify with any particular party. I actually confused "left wing" vs "right wing" for a little while because it wasn't a term i was used to hearing to describe peoples politics. So when i actually starting paying attention around the start of the Iraq war, i more or less did so without having a bias (was actually for the war - big mistake). The more i looked though, the more i realised that the republican platform wasn't designed for me; economically or socially. As such, i suppose i became an impotent democrat (since i can't yet vote), which is funny because back in Australia, i voted almost a straight coalition ticket (the more conservative party) because they took care of the economy and returned surplus after surplus year over year. What i don't understand is people who are a lot like me, yet vote straight republican. To me, it seems that they are voting against their own interests. What are the republicans doing for people making 50-75k? Not a whole lot! ....but that's their business i suppose.
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Post by Aussie Rob on Oct 8, 2008 9:46:36 GMT -5
CNN thinks Obama won? Really? Now there's a news story. Thank God it was followed up by a much more objective source like the NYT. Vote Obama if you think you make too much money and want to give some of it to him so he can make your decisions for you since you are obviously not capable. If you think he won't tax you I can't help you. From Rush Limbaugh: Q"What do Osama Bin Laden and Barack Obama have in common? A: " They both have friends who have bombed the Pentagon." 1) Name me a credible source then Jack. CNN, CNBC, ABC, CBS, even Fox News said that Obama won. National polls have him winning by a lot, as did focus groups. I don't think it really matters, but everyone else seems to...and that's what they're saying. 2) Considering i'll be getting a tax cut, as well as additional help for college....i'll actually be seeing more money. Read his platform mate.
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Post by watchman on Oct 8, 2008 10:03:36 GMT -5
He paid for college like most people; loans and grants. What do you mean never having a job? He was an attorney, as was his wife before both of them became public servants. I'm guessing he bought his house with a regular mortgage like anyone else. The Rezko crap has been thoroughly debunked. Why would him being a good speaker make me uneasy of him? Since when is that a negative trait? As far as why i support him, that's easy. As a member of a middle income family with kids, his platform caters to me; McCain's doesn't nearly as well. I could go through the various issues that i care about, but that would be a boring read. I trust him because i think he genuinely gives a crap. Before he went to law school he worked in Chicago as a community organiser to try and help clean up bad neighborhoods there. That speaks to his character imo because guys that don't give a crap don't choose to do that. After law school he was a civil rights attorney (a noble endeavor imo) and taught constitutional law....so he understands the document that makes America the country it is, and probably respects it a great deal (how can you not, greatest living document in history imo). I don't like it when people mess with it, and i doubt he'll try. When i moved to the USA, i didn't identify with any particular party. I actually confused "left wing" vs "right wing" for a little while because it wasn't a term i was used to hearing to describe peoples politics. So when i actually starting paying attention around the start of the Iraq war, i more or less did so without having a bias (was actually for the war - big mistake). The more i looked though, the more i realised that the republican platform wasn't designed for me; economically or socially. As such, i suppose i became an impotent democrat (since i can't yet vote), which is funny because back in Australia, i voted almost a straight coalition ticket (the more conservative party) because they took care of the economy and returned surplus after surplus year over year. What i don't understand is people who are a lot like me, yet vote straight republican. To me, it seems that they are voting against their own interests. What are the republicans doing for people making 50-75k? Not a whole lot! ....but that's their business i suppose. Thanks Rob for the info. I can see your reasoning. What is "Rezko" ?I do not know what that is. never heard of it. I know he was a lawyer but the time and money does not seem to add up. My fear is simple. Is he being supported by someone in the middle east. He is 1/4 Black, 1/4 White but 1/2 Arab. He really does not connect or fit into typical black America. It is not a race issue but an allegiance issue. It is okay that he is a good at speaking if he has other positive traits. Ronald Reagan was an even better speaker but he seemed more believable. There is a difference in being a good speaker compared with being a smooth talker. Guys I just cannot get past this uneasiness he has another adgenda. also I do not vote strait Repuplican or Democrat. I look at issues and the integrity of the Person. Rob you have helped a little but right now I just do not trust him. I am not 100% thrilled with the alternative but at this point it would be the lesser of two evils. When you said that you think " he genuinely gives a crap" That is the deciding issue. To me it seems like he has a little smirk on his face like he is really does care not but is decieving everyone and knows it. Just my thoughts. mike
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Post by Charlie on Oct 8, 2008 10:21:05 GMT -5
If it is not a race issue, then why would you tie his race/origin to his allegiances?. It is important to doubt everyone running for election. That past has shown most politicians to be less then honest. I was a little concerned to hear McCain promise to buy back the housing market, continue to wage war and somehow we will pay few taxes.....Talk about not adding up.
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Post by watchman on Oct 8, 2008 10:37:35 GMT -5
If it is not a race issue, then why would you tie his race/origin to his allegiances?. It is important to doubt everyone running for election. That past has shown most politicians to be less then honest. I was a little concerned to hear McCain promise to buy back the housing market, continue to wage war and somehow we will pay few taxes.....Talk about not adding up. What I mean by allegiance and not race is this. A Black American is still an American and I have no problem that they will still be for America but I do have questions about someone who is Arab where one of their parents were an extreme Muslim. There are many Blacks I would have no problem voting for. Even an Arab if I knew more about him. I agree buying back housing is a mistake. That is a policy issue. I am addressing a personal issue. I thinking winning the war is more accurate than waging since it has already begun. Charlie Do you have any uneasiness about Obama? I agree with your opening line about doubting the whole political crowd . I am just addressing one right now. McCain's biggest problem is he looks like a fossil. I am afraid he is going to grab his cheat and fall over dead at any moment. I hope you guys are not getting ticked off at my questions. Do not get defensive. I am not trying to persuade you. I am inviting you to persuade me. I am amazed how very reasonable people can look at something and see something 180 degrees opposite. isn't it crazy? I wonder how this can be. mike
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Post by Aussie Rob on Oct 8, 2008 10:49:32 GMT -5
Just a few things because i think you've received some bad info.
- His dad was Kenyan, not Arab. He is also estranged from Barack since he was a toddler and long since dead. - His stepdad was Indonesian, where the dominant religion is Islam. He was not however an extremist and has also been dead 20 years. Much like most Americans identify as Christian, yet many are non-practicing. This describes Obama's stepdad. - Obama is a naturalized citizen of the USA born in Hawaii and is a Christian.
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Post by Angie on Oct 8, 2008 11:10:47 GMT -5
Ok... just to make this discussion go on a little longer. Mike- to answer your question... I am not 100% sold on obama. However, I do feel that he is intelligent, very knowledgeable on the constitution and how government is "supposed" to work. He has been in the Senate long enough to know how the legislative branch "really" works. He will make well informed decisions, more than can be said about "the hot-head and quick-draw maverick"! This is what I want in President. We have seen what happens when president's make emotional decisions. I do not doubt his integrity in the least... I think he has proven that he has alot of it and the fact that he has not been a senate insider for decades makes me believe that he really will attempt to do what he says... whether he will succeed is another matter. You mentioned Obama's agenda... well if he could be the first african-american president... that would be something. However, I think he has the good of the country in mind. He has worked for "community" his whole adult life... I have no reason to think that his views have changed just since becoming a candidate for president. ANGIE I personally do not envy either candidate... they are going to have a huge mess to deal with. I will vote for obama but could live with mccain.... sarah palin is another matter... she REALLY scares me !!!!!!! If mccain wins and then dies... I am moving to Canada.
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Post by watchman on Oct 8, 2008 11:13:51 GMT -5
Just a few things because i think you've received some bad info. - His dad was Kenyan, not Arab. He is also estranged from Barack since he was a toddler and long since dead. - His stepdad was Indonesian, where the dominant religion is Islam. He was not however an extremist and has also been dead 20 years. Much like most Americans identify as Christian, yet many are non-practicing. This describes Obama's stepdad. - Obama is a naturalized citizen of the USA born in Hawaii and is a Christian. Thanks Rob That helps a little. I made a mistake in using the word Arab instead of Muslim. It is not the same but in my mind sometimes it seems interchangeable which is wrong. Where did you get this info? I want to read more. also as far as being Chrsitian. Have you ever gone to the website of his Church?. I know many Black Pastors who would say that it was not very "Christian". I guess it can be a relative term. mike
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Post by MattCollister on Oct 8, 2008 12:49:38 GMT -5
Well, watchman,
You seem to have some concerns about Barak Obama that you can’t quite put your finger on. It’s as if you looked into his eyes and saw his soul. Only, you didn’t see a soul you couldn’t trust. You saw a car salesman.
You asked some specific questions about where he got his money, and I answered them. I can’t tell you how he got his Senate desk. I can’t tell you if he’s part of some pan-Arab plot for world domination. But I don’t think he is. I am far more sure of that than I am that Republicans like George W. Bush and Sarah Palin are part of a Christian plot for world domination. That lady seems to dig Armageddon.
I think the candidates are fairly transparent about their personal histories. It’s hard not to be, in this day and age.
Then, there’s issues. The economy. Iraq. Taxes. Spending and debt. Energy policy. Social Security. The environment. Both candidates have published their platforms. They’re having debates. We can talk about issues here, but we’ve been doing that for months now. Do we have to keep going? Will it really make you change your mind? Take a look and decide what you like. “Leadership is a deal in hope.”
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Post by watchman on Oct 8, 2008 13:04:08 GMT -5
Well, watchman, You seem to have some concerns about Barak Obama that you can’t quite put your finger on. It’s as if you looked into his eyes and saw his soul. Only, you didn’t see a soul you couldn’t trust. You saw a car salesman. You asked some specific questions about where he got his money, and I answered them. I can’t tell you how he got his Senate desk. I can’t tell you if he’s part of some pan-Arab plot for world domination. But I don’t think he is. I am far more sure of that than I am that Republicans like George W. Bush and Sarah Palin are part of a Christian plot for world domination. That lady seems to dig Armageddon. I think the candidates are fairly transparent about their personal histories. It’s hard not to be, in this day and age. Then, there’s issues. The economy. Iraq. Taxes. Spending and debt. Energy policy. Social Security. The environment. Both candidates have published their platforms. They’re having debates. We can talk about issues here, but we’ve been doing that for months now. Do we have to keep going? Will it really make you change your mind? Take a look and decide what you like. “Leadership is a deal in hope.” Once again Matt you have a gift for narrowing things down to what its all about. You also are good at assessing things about personality and people in general. You might look into being some kind of a counselor. I think you are right. It is like if a guy wanted to date my daughter . He could say all i want to hear but I still have to decide if i trust him. Pesronally guys I do not think either canidate is the answer. I am certain that a one world Government and econmy is on the way. For that to happen the USA has to brought to a level with every other nations . It has been happening for years. We will be part of a nation with Mexico, Canada and USA combined. Whoever wins the election will be used to this end. As far as Armegeddon? Russia with Iran, China, Europe all moving into the Middle East to get rid of Israel for one massive final battle. Seems like a real possiblity to me. Or a charismatic leader who will unite everyone to avoid it? The stage is set. I prefer it be delayed about 100 years but there are many things that parallel the current worldwide situation with Germany in 1930. I am reading the book " The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" It is amazing how many things are similar but on a larger worldwide scale. I am not worried at all. I know who wins the battle . mike
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Post by Aussie Rob on Oct 8, 2008 13:55:05 GMT -5
You should be pleased then, we already have a global economy, the rapture is nigh.
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Post by Charlie on Oct 8, 2008 16:55:29 GMT -5
Mike, I do have some(very little) uneasyness about Obama. We all should. He may be our next president. The same should be true of McCain. It is a huge responsibility. If either man fails, we all fail. McCain has demonstrated weakness of character far more blatantly then has Obama. His recent desperate attacks remind me of the partial truths that were used to legitimize the Iraq war. My belief is that John McCain will maintain current policy. This is a HUGE mistake in my opinion.
Obama not only offers a new direction, but sends a sign to the rest of the world, that the American people are ready to take a progressive new direction into the future. WE need to re establish global credibility as a world leader.
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Post by watchman on Oct 8, 2008 21:56:58 GMT -5
You should be pleased then, we already have a global economy, the rapture is nigh. Rob what is the "rapture" ? is it some religious thing? Charlie I think it comes down to who we believe. it is hard with some much information and misinformation going around. How can any of us know for sure? We are left with judging character or Like Matt said looking into someones soul. I cannot get pa st the feeling that Obama is not honest. I then try and figure out why. I am amazed at the fact the two people can watch the same event like a debate and see totally opposite things. Why do you think that is? Also on any other topic we can disagree and there be no tension but on this stuff it always seems to stir up attitudes. if we all disagreed on the type of wheels on our bike or whether or not to allow wetsuits, we can disagree and no big deal. Why does this political stuff bring out such emotion? mike
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Post by Charlie on Oct 8, 2008 22:33:00 GMT -5
We all have a unique perspective. I couldn't begin to imagine your life, as I am confident in believing my life would be alien to you. We all have a lot at stake. Our priorities differ.
I will admit, eight years ago McCain might have gotten my vote over Gore. Since that time he has lost most of his credibility with me. He ceases to be the free thinker I admired. He fell in line with the current administration. I feel they have failed and betrayed us. I fail to comprehend the beleif that we have less government and we spend less. The evidence does not support the belief that the modern republican party is capable of reducing government or taxes,
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Post by keaveny on Oct 9, 2008 8:21:29 GMT -5
It's common knowledge to anyone who has taken a couple of econ classes that trickle down doesn't work. Strictly speaking trickle down doesn't work. On the other hand I've never been employed by anyone who makes less money than me. I think you would be particularly useful to this thread if you have knowledge of how Aussie banks work regarding mortgages. My understanding is that they are little-regulated and that home ownership is highly-discriminatory (in a financial sense) based upon your credit, your existing assets, LTV ratios, and your future ability to pay. Virtually all of these considerations were suspended in the '90's because home ownership was viewed by politicos as a right not a privilege. Then again the US has not been accustomed to living spartan lives for decades and politicians, regrettably follow public opinion of a public that are reluctant to take poor tasting medicine even if it is for their own good.
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Post by keaveny on Oct 9, 2008 8:46:30 GMT -5
Obama Uneasiness
From the "virtue lies between excess and neglect" file:
At a time like this I am always concerned that a particularly desperate situation results in an equally desperate response in the exact opposite direction. I had this concern over 9/11 and, in my opinion, it proved true (i.e. let's bomb somebody's ass...anybody).
Obama referenced government getting involved in mandating that mortgage providers renegotiate principal amounts with home owners.
I hope he doesn't mean what it sounds like he means. That would be disastrous.
I am all for revolutionary ideas but not that type of revolution.
I am for things like:
1) a $1.10 tax credit for every $1 donated to a charitable organization. A $1.20 tax credit for every $1 for those charities directly helping the poor.
2) Someone having the balls to take SSI off freaking budget and the further fortitude to inform everyone it is archaic and broke and must be fixed. No need to scare seniors with the fix; to not fix it is much scarier.
3) A strong military is the best road to peace. "Linebackers don't get mugged." This also means a focus on protecting our own borders and diplomacy abroad. Troops abroad should be at the invitation of our friends and only out of necessity against our enemies and in the immediate interest of America.
4) Link the dollar to gold, already.
5) Limit government growth to no greater than population growth plus inflation.
6) Build more bike paths.
This is a small list. Useless to print the whole list because neither candidate speaks to them. That said I am not undecided and haven't been since the nominees were determined.
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Post by Aussie Rob on Oct 9, 2008 9:21:54 GMT -5
Link the dollar to gold?! You realise we used to do that and stopped because it's literally impossible right? We don't have nearly enough to back the currency.
Of course rich guys employ people, because it makes them rich. The misconception that giving them more money means they employ more people is false. It sounds great and thats why its survived this long, but the reality shows a complete disconnect. There is no correlation.
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